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[erolz]

I believe you also agree that some TCs provoked or used force against GCs in order to create more violence between communities.

Yes

There is a fine line between using force to create tensions that will lead to removal of TCs and using force to remove TCs so by saying so it is not necessarily wrong but just getting straight to the point.

This whole discussion grew out of statements by GC about why TC fled their homes. Claims that GC violence was not the main factor that cause TC to flee their homes. Within this argument it was alledged that TC forced TC from thier homes. They did not. Saying the did is just wrong and based in propaganda. This is not a 'fine line', it is just wrong. Defending such statements as being 'not necessiarily wrong' does not wash. If the point is that TC engaged in activites that encourage GC to drive TC from their villages then the way to get straight to the point is to say that and not to say TC drove TC from their villages. That is not getting straight to the point. That is propaganda. To then say that the because there is no testimony form TC about this is proof of a TC 'code of silence' is just adding insult on top of insult.

[metecyp]

To then say that the because there is no testimony form TC about this is proof of a TC 'code of silence' is just adding insult on top of insult.

You would think that GCs would at least accept the majority of the blame for 1963-1974. I mean if they claim that TCs are more to blame for 1963-1974, then we don't have anything to build on. What's the next step? A conspiracy theory blaming TCs for the Greek coup?

[magikthrill]

This whole discussion grew out of statements by GC about why TC fled their homes. Claims that GC violence was not the main factor that cause TC to flee their homes. Within this argument it was alledged that TC forced TC from thier homes. They did not. Saying the did is just wrong and based in propaganda. This is not a 'fine line', it is just wrong. Defending such statements as being 'not necessiarily wrong' does not wash. If the point is that TC engaged in activites that encourage GC to drive TC from their villages then the way to get straight to the point is to say that and not to say TC drove TC from their villages. That is not getting straight to the point. That is propaganda. To then say that the because there is no testimony form TC about this is proof of a TC 'code of silence' is just adding insult on top of insult.

Ok so TCs used force to indirectly remove TCs into enclaves and not directly.

And I never said anything about there being a code of silence. Those who dont accept this are just ignorant and/or misinformed. I never said anything about keeping it on the DL.

[erolz]

Ok so TCs used force to indirectly remove TCs into enclaves and not directly.

This is just another version of the thesis that TC MADE GC attack inncocent TC in their homes with the sepcfic aim of driving them from those homes and thus it was TC that forced TC from their homes (indirectly), and not actually GC irregular and regular armed bands that were turning up in TC villages and using violence and force and murder to drive TC from thier homes.

To try and give you an idea of how such a thesis sounds and more importantly feels to TC I could say GC were responsible for GC deaths in 74 at hands of Turkey and for the loss of GC lands in 74 - because GC made Turkey do these things. GC used 'indirect' force to force GC from their homes in 74. How does that feel to you magik?

This has to be the single most depressing thread I can remember participating in on this forum It feels like there is no acceptance I can make about TC actions in this period - short of accepting the untrue assertion that TC forced TC from their homes, that would 'satsisfy' you magik or some other GC posters in the thread.

And I never said anything about there being a code of silence.

I have never said you said this. I have said that my responses were to claims like these that were made. Responses to which you thern jump on. The context of my responses has to be considered in terms of what they were responding to and not only in trms of what you said.

Those who dont accept this are just ignorant and/or misinformed.

Those who do not accept what? That you never said there was a TC 'code of silence'?

I never said anything about keeping it on the DL.

I do not know what 'keeping it on the DL' means ?

[magikthrill]

This is just another version of the thesis that TC MADE GC attack inncocent TC in their homes with the sepcfic aim of driving them from those homes

i have read texts - non GC- that do claim this.

[/quote]

To try and give you an idea of how such a thesis sounds and more importantly feels to TC I could say GC were responsible for GC deaths in 74 at hands of Turkey and for the loss of GC lands in 74 - because GC made Turkey do these things. GC used 'indirect' force to force GC from their homes in 74. How does that feel to you magik?

is there any evidence that says GCs were involved in the invasion? i havent ready anything but i have heard that some GCs and/or Greeks (cant remember) were in cooperation with Turkey at the 74 coup and knew Turkey was going to invade. NOt sure how true it is but it is something that I do consider and am looking forward to learning more about.

This has to be the single most depressing thread I can remember participating in on this forum It feels like there is no acceptance I can make about TC actions in this period - short of accepting the untrue assertion that TC forced TC from their homes, that would 'satsisfy' you magik or some other GC posters in the thread.

i would say its gotten a little out of hand. i tend to focus on one point while you focus on the enirety so there have been some misunderstandings.

Those who do not accept what? That you never said there was a TC 'code of silence'?

those who dont accept that it wasnt only the GCs fault that led to the events of 63 and the partition of the island but Turkey and many TCs did have an agenda of their own.

I do not know what 'keeping it on the DL' means ?

D L = down low its ghetto talk sorry mate

[erolz]

This is just another version of the thesis that TC MADE GC attack inncocent TC in their homes with the sepcfic aim of driving them from those homes

i have read texts - non GC- that do claim this.

Claim what? That TC made GC attack them and drive them from their homes?

is there any evidence that says GCs were involved in the invasion? i havent ready anything but i have heard that some GCs and/or Greeks (cant remember) were in cooperation with Turkey at the 74 coup and knew Turkey was going to invade. NOt sure how true it is but it is something that I do consider and am looking forward to learning more about.

You have missed my point entirely. If you argue (as apparently you do?) that TC are responsible for the _GC_ attacks on TC villages that led to TC fleeing their homes because TC MADE GC do this, then the same appraoch can be used to say that GC are responsible for T/TC attacks in 74 and driving GC from their homes in period - because GC MADE T/TC do what it did in 74. Made them do this by how they treated TC in the previous period and not because GC were _directly_ involved in the 74 action on the side of T/TC.

those who dont accept that it wasnt only the GCs fault that led to the events of 63 and the partition of the island but Turkey and many TCs did have an agenda of their own.

Can you find a SINGLE example where this claim has been made in this thread? As opposed to the examples where GC have claimed that TC forced TC from thier homes, or that the main reason whty TC were fleeing thier homes after 63 was NOT GC violence or the threat of it. You are responding to claims that have never been made in the thread. I have responded to claims that were made and are still being defended (by yourself in some instances).

Can you not just accept that whatever else the TC did in this period to contrinbute to the disater that is Cyprus today (and I have admitted lots of such things that are true), TC forcing TC from their homes (like GC forced TC from their homes) was not one of them? No 'sophisticated' arguments about what we made GC do, or if we did it directly or indirectly. Can you not just accept the reality and truth that TC did not force (turn up in armed bands and shoot and kill and tell) TC to leave their homes?

[magikthrill]

Claim what? That TC made GC attack them and drive them from their homes?
[/quote]

actually yes. that some TCs provoked attacks and that even some TCs (this I believe as much as the 1974 greek cooperatino with Turkey) bombed TC areas making it seem that it was the GCs that did this.

You have missed my point entirely. If you argue (as apparently you do?) that TC are responsible for the _GC_ attacks on TC villages that led to TC fleeing their homes because TC MADE GC do this,

i feel like i forgot to make a point on this earlier so i will make it now. i do believe that TCs also played a role in the intercommunal violence period BUT the GCs are defintiely at most fault for this. also Turkey is to blame for the turnout of the events (pre 74).

then the same appraoch can be used to say that GC are responsible for T/TC attacks in 74 and driving GC from their homes in period - because GC MADE T/TC do what it did in 74.

erol this makes no sense.

my claim that TCs were in part responsible for the removal of TCs make sense because this would fulfill the turkish and certain TC agenda of achieveing partition.

your claim satisfies no GC agenda and thus makes no sense.

Made them do this by how they treated TC in the previous period and not because GC were _directly_ involved in the 74 action on the side of T/TC.

you put a period which is why im commenting differently.

YES GCs are responsible indirecltly for the events of 74. ive said this before and im saying it again. moreso certain GC politicians and Greek army politicians though cause no civilians are at fault in either side.

Can you find a SINGLE example where this claim has been made in this thread? As opposed to the examples where GC have claimed that TC forced TC from thier homes, or that the main reason whty TC were fleeing thier homes after 63 was NOT GC violence or the threat of it. You are responding to claims that have never been made in the thread. I have responded to claims that were made and are still being defended (by yourself in some instances).

i never said a claim was made but im sure there are TCs here that dont believe TCs played any hamr during the violence.

Can you not just accept that whatever else the TC did in this period to contrinbute to the disater that is Cyprus today (and I have admitted lots of such things that are true), TC forcing TC from their homes (like GC forced TC from their homes) was not one of them?

my man, even the Vienna III agreement on the supposed "Agreed" exchange of populations TCs were FORCED to move from the south.

now maybe during the bloodbath TCs didnt necessarily point guns at other TCs telling them to move (even though I feel likethis is totally plausible) Im sure TC partitionoists were more than willing to achieve their goal through any means necessary. THE SAME WAY that GC enosists and EOKA B terrorists killed anyone that got in their way of their plans regardless of their ethnicity!

No 'sophisticated' arguments about what we made GC do, or if we did it directly or indirectly. Can you not just accept the reality and truth that TC did not force (turn up in armed bands and shoot and kill and tell) TC to leave their homes?

and what is reality exactly erol?
i wasnt there so i cant believe anything for sure. i get my opinions from historical texts and my belief of how plausible they are depending on different circumstances.


sidenote:

AGAIN you make me comment on every line

and cheer up were just dicussing here. i wasnt upset when you said once "former GC properties" so why are you here?

[MicAtCyp]

What you said in the past was that TC forced TC from their homes into enclaves against their will. You also have said because their is no testimony from TC that this happened it is proof of a TC 'code of silence'. Neither of these things is correct. just to remind you of your earlier post.

Erol, please! All I did is support the notion that some moved with their own will, some moved after being forced by TMT. It is a totally different thesis than what you said that I said, i.e from your rounding up that all Tcs fled exclussively because other TCs forced them.I never said that, neither supported it. Why do you keep repeating it when I tell you I disagree with this thesis?

Do you deny the fact there is a "code of silence" both among the Tcs and the GCs? Just name me one TC admitting he killed a GC, or one TC willing to testify against another TC for a case of GC killing. Don't get me wrong the same is true for the GCs.Well if that code of silence is a fact (for both communities) then why someone (like poor MicAtCyp)b cannot wonder if it applied for other untestimonied facts of the 60s? Well OK, the way I said it in my first post was as if I was absolutely sure, but in subsequent posts I said it could be one of the possibilities.

Again the thesis that TC made GC go to TC villages and kill and drive TC from them. Ridiculous.

OK it's ridiculous, fine. Tell me then, why Grivas attacked Kofinou and not the TC village Avdellero which was next to it? Tell me why he attacked Kokkina/Erenkoy and not so many other TC villages. Tell me why the TCs living in enclaves were by the vast majority coming from VERY SPECIFIC villages. And please don't spout me the fairy tail that ALL TCs fled to enclaves and got packed in 3% of the land. We all know that those who fled their homes were 20-25 thousand i.e 1 in 5 and the rest did not move an inch from their places.

Why did GC use violence to drive TC from thier homes? You think the main is reason is TC made you do this. Well in the sense we refused to simply let you take away our legal rights under the consistituion and declare ensosis we 'made you' kill and attack and terrorise us. I think the reason why you used violence against TC is you believed the use of such violence could help you achieve ENOSIS and the removal of the TC communites leagl rights under the consitituion - two clearly defined and expressed aspitartions of the GC community leadersdhip at that time.

I cant beleive how easily you draw such simplistic conclussions in your mind Erol.Do you seriously beleive the GCs used violence for the whole purpose of making you go out of your homes and go to enclaves?Never passed through your mind that the enclaves were perhaps a more "dangerous" situation for the GCs, that could not justify such an action?
Do you seriously beleive that the purpose of violence was to create the conditions for Enosis?
Do you seriously beleive the violence was an effort to deprive you of your political rights, when your leaders just abandoned the Government under the most peaceful conditions?

I already told you the reasons why the GCs attacked.
1.The original reason was because the TMT was organising key position villages militarily to form a network that would later join and partition the island. Grivas as the head of the Army attacked those very specific villages. The vast majority of TCs who fleed their homes were from those villages.
2.Murders and retaliation then spread in other villages and town areas too against members of the GC or TC community from individuals and other rebels of both communities.

What I do not accept is that the TC community bears equal responsibilty for what occured in period 60-74 - because I do not believe this to be true (based primaily on the fact that the TC community did not have the same power or ability ot direct events is Cyprus as the larger GC community did)

Erol you seem to totally disregard that no other 18% group in the world would ever dare do such things with the aim of partitioning the place, unless they sensed behind some much bigger force i.e Turkey.
Lets suppose for example there was a tiny island near France with population 82% French and 18% others.Could you ever imagine that 18% wanting partition against the will of the 82% French inhabitants?
So your argument that the GCs were more and had more power and therefore are more responsible makes me wonder how true it can stand by itself.

Nor does it diminish the responsibility of those that empowered these leaders. We are equally guilty of empowring bad leaders.

What responsibility Erol? From people who never ever empowered anyone other than their priests and some puppets of foreign powers? in fact the GCs elected a priest and you elected a doctor puppet of Turkey who was later ordered to step aside to let you "elect" Denktash without any other canditate present.

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But can I ask , what was the main reason behind the main reason, behind the main reason?

Stupidity my friend. What else? Vlakes Vs Deli, Deli Vs Vlakes.

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before you judge the book as being "biased" you might want to know that it also contains a full blown picture of 2 turkish cypriot babies massacred in nicosia...

You know Magik? just recently the photographer of that photo revealed that the man who butchered the babies was their lunatic TC father. And Denktash ordered this photographer to set up the photo with the father holding his butched babies to prove that "here the GCs even kill babies".
I am asking our TC friends can they now see what a demonic leader they had for so many years? Who could ever think of falling so low just for propaganda purposes?

[magikthrill]

You know Magik? just recently the photographer of that photo revealed that the man who butchered the babies was their lunatic TC father. And Denktash ordered this photographer to set up the photo with the father holding his butched babies to prove that "here the GCs even kill babies".
I am asking our TC friends can they now see what a demonic leader they had for so many years? Who could ever think of falling so low just for propaganda purposes?

nope i did not know this. the caption of this picture said that the "Stained bath" still remains on display in nicosia and i thought that was pretty disturbing. like a monument saying "see what our enemies did to us?"

[metecyp]

just recently the photographer of that photo revealed that the man who butchered the babies was their lunatic TC father. And Denktash ordered this photographer to set up the photo with the father holding his butched babies to prove that "here the GCs even kill babies".

Can someone explain this further? I dont know this either. Which photograph? Which man? Where was the information published? Thanks