Cyprus-Forum.com

[suetoniuspaulinus]

That you can see it as 'crytal clear historical truth' that the main reason why TC
fled their homes was being told to do so by TC leadership and not GC violence and murder and fear of such against them is to me beyond disturbing to say the least.

Hold on for a minute. First of all who told you my view of the reason the TCs were fleeing their homes is what you say above. This is just your arbitrary understanding that I personally never confirmed or disconfirmed-simply just let you saying it over and over again. All I said in the past is that the TC leadership and the TMT aimed at concentrating the TCs in enclaves or in big areas.The ways that goal would be achieved varied.

The crystal clear truth that I am describing is that the TMT was creating the conditions for the GCs to attack and therefore for the TCs to flee. The fact that the attacks were then generalised even to villages and people who had nothing to do with it is another matter.

That is why i asked you:
What was the main reason behind the "main reason"

You did not answer me that.

The main reason TC fled their homes was GC violence and the fear of it against them. It was not the only reason but it was the main one. This is my view. It is a view that is entirely consistent with the hundreds of contemporary reports by journalist around the world. It is a views shared by the independent and respected reasercher who studied this issue in detail and is quote on the cyprus conflict website.

Yes, but that was not my question.By question was what was the reason behind those actions and who provided those reasons? Simple GC hate??? The alledged desire to elliminate the TCs from the face of Earth? Or was it something else?

Mr MicAtCyp

I think I understand what you mean,

But can I ask , what was the main reason behind the main reason, behind the main reason?

[magikthrill]

What you said in the past was that TC forced TC from their homes into enclaves against their will. You also have said because their is no testimony from TC that this happened it is proof of a TC 'code of silence'. Neither of these things is correct.

a book im reading "The Cyprus Conspiracy"

Turkish Cypriot leaders, including Denktash, confirmed to him that they aimed to further the case for partition by provoking violent inter-ethnic incidents that would justify a Turkish invasion. They also wanted to create and direct a Turkish-Cypriot refugee movement into the northern part of Cyprus.

of course you may wish to close your ears and start yelling to disregard this as you seem to do when information doesnt suit your interests. before you judge the book as being "biased" you might want to know that it also contains a full blown picture of 2 turkish cypriot babies massacred in nicosia...

[erolz]

of course you may wish to close your ears and start yelling to disregard this as you seem to do when information doesnt suit your interests. before you judge the book as being "biased" you might want to know that it also contains a full blown picture of 2 turkish cypriot babies massacred in nicosia...

I do not close my ears. I have accepted that elements in TC community sought and prompted inter comunal violence to further their poltical aims (many times in fact i have accepted this) - because I beleive it to be true. I accept that TMT used violence against some TC to prevent them retirning to their homes - beacuse I beleieve it is true and their is documentary evidence to support this (again many times in fact i have accepted this)
What I do not accept is that the TC community bears equal responsibilty for what occured in period 60-74 - because I do not believe this to be true (based primaily on the fact that the TC community did not have the same power or ability ot direct events is Cyprus as the larger GC community did)
I do not accept that GC violence and the fear of such was not the main reason why so many ordianry TC fled their homes (not left them but fled them) - because I do not believe this is true.
I do not accept that TC went to TC villages and drove TC out of them (in a similar way to which GC did this to TC) - because I do not believe this is true.

It seems to me not matter how many times I clear and openly accept that TC are also to blame for the events of 60-74, or that TMT did use force against some TC to prevent them returning to their homes, or that TC leadership promoted intercommunal violence to futher their poltical objectives - as long as I also insist that we were not equally to blame in this period or that TC did not drive TC from their homes (like GC did) or that the main reason that led TC to flee thier homes was GC violence, I will be accused of 'closing my ears' and disregarding information when it suits and pushing a biased propaganda version of history. I have to wonder who it is who is really 'closing their ears' here?

I repeatedly have accepted TC community carries blame for events of 60-74. Yet reapetedly I am accused of trying to 'deny TC community responsibity'. I have repeatedly accepted that TMT use force to stop some TC from returning to their homes. Yet repeatedly I have been accused of denying this. I have repeatedly accepted that GC violence was not the only reason TC fled their homes yet repeatedly I been accused of saying that the only reason they did was GC violence. So again I ask you who is really 'closing their ears' here ? Me or those that keep making these accusations despite what I have celarly and openly said?

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

What I have been trying to put across to you is that at the political level there is equal responsibility for how things turned out in Cyprus. The fact that you have concentrated on one aspect of that period gives the impression that you are trying to diminish the responsibility of TC's.

I have said, that as the larger comunity we probably had a bigger effect on the TC's on the ground than vice versa, but that does not diminish or reduce the responsiblity of the political leaders of both communities.

Kucuck was well known for his Turkish nationalist rhetoric, way before the EOKA struggle, and yet he was your elected leader. The accusations that you level at Makarios can be applied in equal measure to Kucuck. From my point of view, the moral responsibility lies with the political leadership of the respective communities of the time.

Lets not also forget that the first instance of ethnic cleansing was the expulsion of hundreds of GC's from Omorphita by the TC's and thus that terrible cycle began.

[magikthrill]

erol

i agree with you.

you quote the part that i wrote in my post but you didnt quote yourself:

What you said in the past was that TC forced TC from their homes into enclaves against their will. You also have said because their is no testimony from TC that this happened it is proof of a TC 'code of silence'. Neither of these things is correct.

but then you say

I accept that TMT used violence against some TC to prevent them retirning to their homes - beacuse I beleieve it is true and their is documentary evidence to support this

??
did i misunderstand soemthing here

[erolz]

The fact that you have concentrated on one aspect of that period gives the impression that you are trying to diminish the responsibility of TC's.

The fact is I have concentrated on those things posted by GC that I believe to be untrue. I did not start the thread. I did not 'make' GC posters make claims like these I responded to them. You do not see the GC posters expressing these views as trying to diminish GC responsibility but you do see my reaction to them as trying to diminish TC resonsibility. What can I say or do?

I have said, that as the larger comunity we probably had a bigger effect on the TC's on the ground than vice versa, but that does not diminish or reduce the responsiblity of the political leaders of both communities.

Nor does it diminish the responsibility of those that empowered these leaders. We are equally guilty of empowring bad leaders. But as far as the guilt of each community goes the GC as the larger and stronger community in the period 60-74 had a larger share of the blame for what happened. That is what I am saying and I stick by it.

Kucuck was well known for his Turkish nationalist rhetoric, way before the EOKA struggle, and yet he was your elected leader. The accusations that you level at Makarios can be applied in equal measure to Kucuck. From my point of view, the moral responsibility lies with the political leadership of the respective communities of the time.

Again I do not dispute this in general terms (there are some 'details' I could dispute but will not do so). All I dispute is that the leaders are to blame and the people who actively of tacitly empowered them are absolved of any guilt for what they did in the peoples name.

Lets not also forget that the first instance of ethnic cleansing was the expulsion of hundreds of GC's from Omorphita by the TC's and thus that terrible cycle began.

How could I forget this given how constantly it is recalled here in post? Personally I do not like the term ethnic cleansing for any of the events that occured in Cyprus - I find it emotive and designed to be 'prejudical'. I do not however deny this event took place. It did. I do not even deny that the motives you ascribe to it taking palce are untrue (I might suggest there were other reasons as well perhaps).

In the context of what I am saying about events pre 74 and in relation to this event. I believe there are ways that the GC community could have bbehaved towards the TC community that would have mde this action by the TC unlikely or extremely unlikely. I do not believe that any way the TC community behaved towards the GC community - short of accepting enosis could have changed the GC desire for it and willingness to use illegal and violent means to achieve it. In my view the GC community in Cyprus had more potential ability to avoid 'disaster' in Cyprus by how they alone behaved than the TC community did - simply because of the realtive sizes of the communites. As such I still maintin it is fair and accurate to talk about more blame of the GC community in this period than the TC community in this period for the fact that it did end in disaster.

[erolz]

erol

i agree with you.

on what? or just in general ?

you quote the part that i wrote in my post but you didnt quote yourself:

What you said in the past was that TC forced TC from their homes into enclaves against their will. You also have said because their is no testimony from TC that this happened it is proof of a TC 'code of silence'. Neither of these things is correct.

but then you say

I accept that TMT used violence against some TC to prevent them retirning to their homes - beacuse I beleieve it is true and their is documentary evidence to support this

??
did i misunderstand soemthing here

I do not know what you have misunderstood?

Do you think the two things I have stated are incompatible? If so then you misunderstand the difference between preventing someone from returning to their homes after having been driven from them and someone driving someone from their homes.

TC did use force to prevent some TC from _returning_ to their homes. There is documenatary evidence and TC testimonials to support this.

TC did not use force to drive TC from their homes in the first place. There is no dicumentary evidence or TC testimonials to support this.

Is that clearer now ?

Is that any clearer.

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

I don't think things are as simple as you suggest.

Gc's and TC's of the time were politically immature. It is not a question of the people empowering the politicians. It was more a question of the politicians empowering themselves. Kucuck would not do anything in Cyprus unless agreed by Turkey for example. What kind of message would that send to the GC's? Equally, Makarios at that time was in sync with Greece and obviously sending the wrong messages to the TC's until the junta arrived and then he abandned enosis and fought for an independent Cyprus. What did the TC's do? They carried on consulting with Turkey with their every move being directed by them.

I cannot accept what I think is a simplistic argument on your part, that because we were the larger community we are 4 x to blame than the TC's. You concentrate on the 63-67 period (68-74 was a standoff period with little violence) without looking at what actually led up to those events from happening. I don't think it is fair to take a snapshot in time and apportion blame which is the impresion that I get with your argument.

[erolz]

I cannot accept what I think is a simplistic argument on your part, that because we were the larger community we are 4 x to blame than the TC's.

And actualy all I have ever said (or wanted some recognition of from GC) is that the GC commnity was more to blame. I did mention 4 times the population and foru times the blame my intent was only to 'ridicule' the concept of equal blame. So to be absolutely clear I am not saying GC have 4 times the blame of TC in the period 60-74, only that they should accept they have more of the blame than the TC community. I would re emphasis, yet again, that even this position I have only ever offered in _reaction_ to GC claims that the GC community had less or equal blame in this period as TC community.

You concentrate on the 63-67 period (68-74 was a standoff period with little violence) without looking at what actually led up to those events from happening. I don't think it is fair to take a snapshot in time and apportion blame which is the impresion that I get with your argument.

As far as I am concerend there are three distinct 'phases' to the history of Cyprus as an indpendent nation. The pre indepndance phase. The phase from 60-74 when we lived 'togeaher' alledgedly under the 60 consistuion and the post 74 to date phase. Certainly these phases can be firhter split and for some puposes this is necessary. For example the middle phase can be split into 60-63 63-68 and 68-74. However in general terms the first 3 phases I outlined are 'valid' imo. To understand the Cyprus problem as it exists today each of these phases must be understood and how what occured in each affected the followinf phases. Tyring to understand any in isolation or the cyprus problem in context of any individal phases can only fail imo. In this thread I have been talking about the middle phase - because the assertions by GC that I disagreed with and wished to challenge and _reacted_ to were about this middle phase. If you get the impression that I am trying to take a single 'snapshot' and portray that as the whole Cyprus problem over all it's phases or take the blame at a given snapshot and say this is the blame that accrues over all of them to date, then you have formed a mistaken impression. Again with respect I suspect that this mistaken impression is rooted more in you than in what I have actualy said - when, to site just one example, I have said expliclty every time I am reffering to this middle phase only (in terms of more GC blame than TC) and also said explcilty that in the third phase (74-to date) that TC/T have more blame than GC. The gap between what I actualy say and the impression you get of what I am saying remains a large one apparently.

[magikthrill]

TC did use force to prevent some TC from _returning_ to their homes. There is documenatary evidence and TC testimonials to support this.

TC did not use force to drive TC from their homes in the first place. There is no dicumentary evidence or TC testimonials to support this.

Is that clearer now ?

Is that any clearer.

I believe you also agree that some TCs provoked or used force against GCs in order to create more violence between communities.

There is a fine line between using force to create tensions that will lead to removal of TCs and using force to remove TCs so by saying so it is not necessarily wrong but just getting straight to the point.