Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

The politicians of the TC and GC were mainly empowered by the respective motherlands. Your politicians at the time were effectively controlled by Turkey.

Makarios did not have the overwhealming support of the GC people but was a Greek 'puppet'? What you say actualy has some truth for the TC leadership though Kutcuk did have the support of the majority of the TC community I believe.

Obvioulsy there was more scope for GC to pressure the TC due to their larger numbers and I do not deny that,

more scope for GC community to determine where Cyprus ended up (till 74) than there was for TC community?

but the people that perpertrated acts like this from both sides were following the will of their respective politicians and in my view that is where the root of the problem lies as it does till today.

I do not disagree that our repsective leaderships carry blame. I disagree that we as the communites supporting them carry any blame for their actions. The acted in our names. If we did not agree with what they did in our names we had a moral duty to remove to withdraw our supoort from them and remove them form power.

You talk about political equality and yet, when it comes to taking responsibility for the past your leadership resists to take its fair share of responsibility.

Exactly - GC talk about there can be no way a smaller TC community can fairly have political equality with a lrger GC community but has no problem in assigning poltical blame equally for the period 60-74. In the EU the RoC has poltical equality with Germany. However that does not mean that the RoC has the same ability to determin the future of the EU as the RoC and if the EU ends up in a disaterous place the RoC will not have as much responsibility for that as Germany.

To this day Erol the TC and Turkish leadership are rubbing our noses in it. At the most basic humanitarian level, they simply avoid and side track from taking responsibility as is the case with the fate of the missing for example.

Eveything I have been arguing in this thread as been about the period 60-74. I do not disagree that these arguments changed totaly in 74 and that fair blame changed totaly in 74 because from that point onwards we were no longer the 'smaller weaker' party but effectively the stronger party. In fact my arguments are essentialy the same after 74. TC and T after 74 carry a greater protion of the blame because they had more ability to control where Cyprus ended up after that point. It's not quite so simple after 74 but the essence of 'the powerful have more responsibility than the weak' remians essentialy the same. I do not deny TC and T greater responsibility (and thus blame) after 74. I accpet that. However many GC do deny greater GC responsibility (and thus blame) before 74. That is the difference.

[Murtaza]

um if you are representing Turkey then how bout you start by ending 30 years of int'l law violation and end the occupation.

how?
I mean how peacefully?

[magikthrill]

um if you are representing Turkey then how bout you start by ending 30 years of int'l law violation and end the occupation.

how?
I mean how peacefully?

you make a good point. peace, turkey and cyprus cannot coexist. hence removal of turkey from cyprus.

[Murtaza]

um if you are representing Turkey then how bout you start by ending 30 years of int'l law violation and end the occupation.

how?
I mean how peacefully?

you make a good point. peace, turkey and cyprus cannot coexist. hence removal of turkey from cyprus.

how?
Show us the way.
how can Turkish army go out of Cyprus?

[erolz]

i also agree that GCs are more to blame than TCs when playing the blame game but also Turkey is to blame more than both.

This is correct imo after 74 but not upto 74. Upto 74 GC were more to blame than TC and T imo.

[magikthrill]

i also agree that GCs are more to blame than TCs when playing the blame game but also Turkey is to blame more than both.

This is correct imo after 74 but not upto 74. Upto 74 GC were more to blame than TC and T imo.

perhaps. but im taking the overall picture. cause if we go before that, britain is to be blamed more and even before that it was the ottomans.

[garbitsch]

um if you are representing Turkey then how bout you start by ending 30 years of int'l law violation and end the occupation.

How 'bout you start dating with Madonna?

[Murtaza]

for removing Army, I think we should get a yes from TC.
So It is too easy magic.
Instead of repeating get our of cyprus, You should just make an agreement with TC. I am sure If you want to live with each other peacefully, you should made this agreement. So I dont think Turkey want much from GC.
Just we want to be sure, GC and TC will life peacefully.

[MicAtCyp]

That you can see it as 'crytal clear historical truth' that the main reason why TC
fled their homes was being told to do so by TC leadership and not GC violence and murder and fear of such against them is to me beyond disturbing to say the least.

Hold on for a minute. First of all who told you my view of the reason the TCs were fleeing their homes is what you say above. This is just your arbitrary understanding that I personally never confirmed or disconfirmed-simply just let you saying it over and over again. All I said in the past is that the TC leadership and the TMT aimed at concentrating the TCs in enclaves or in big areas.The ways that goal would be achieved varied.

The crystal clear truth that I am describing is that the TMT was creating the conditions for the GCs to attack and therefore for the TCs to flee. The fact that the attacks were then generalised even to villages and people who had nothing to do with it is another matter.

That is why i asked you:
What was the main reason behind the "main reason"

You did not answer me that.

The main reason TC fled their homes was GC violence and the fear of it against them. It was not the only reason but it was the main one. This is my view. It is a view that is entirely consistent with the hundreds of contemporary reports by journalist around the world. It is a views shared by the independent and respected reasercher who studied this issue in detail and is quote on the cyprus conflict website.

Yes, but that was not my question.By question was what was the reason behind those actions and who provided those reasons? Simple GC hate??? The alledged desire to elliminate the TCs from the face of Earth? Or was it something else?

[erolz]

All I said in the past is that the TC leadership and the TMT aimed at concentrating the TCs in enclaves or in big areas.The ways that goal would be achieved varied.

What you said in the past was that TC forced TC from their homes into enclaves against their will. You also have said because their is no testimony from TC that this happened it is proof of a TC 'code of silence'. Neither of these things is correct. just to remind you of your earlier post.

Erol,
May I remind you once again my point? You cannot find ANY TC to admit from HIS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that yes his family was forced into the enclaves by their own people AGAINST their will.

You DO NOT count as a testimony, because we all know the story of your family. Find me one who can verify it either because his parents told him so, or because he experienced it himself and I will admit I was wrong.
You will not find any. You know why?
Code of Silence!

The crystal clear truth that I am describing is that the TMT was creating the conditions for the GCs to attack and therefore for the TCs to flee. The fact that the attacks were then generalised even to villages and people who had nothing to do with it is another matter.

Again the thesis that TC made GC go to TC villages and kill and drive TC from them. Ridiculous. You may just as well blame the TC community for the actions of the GC community in this period on the basis of we made you terrorise us by resisting enosis.

That is why i asked you:
What was the main reason behind the "main reason"

You did not answer me that.

Yes, but that was not my question.By question was what was the reason behind those actions and who provided those reasons? Simple GC hate??? The alledged desire to elliminate the TCs from the face of Earth? Or was it something else?

Why did GC use violence to drive TC from thier homes? You think the main is reason is TC made you do this. Well in the sense we refused to simply let you take away our legal rights under the consistituion and declare ensosis we 'made you' kill and attack and terrorise us. I think the reason why you used violence against TC is you believed the use of such violence could help you achieve ENOSIS and the removal of the TC communites leagl rights under the consitituion - two clearly defined and expressed aspitartions of the GC community leadersdhip at that time. I have little doubt that if TC community had said in 63- yes fine take away all our rights as a community and declare enosis - we will do nothing to try and stop this, then you would not have used violence to drive us from our homes. We did not say this and you did use such violence. Is the GC choice to use that violence our fault?