Cyprus-Forum.com

[Saint Jimmy]

I like analogies. They simplify things a lot and they remove many of the inocmplicating parameters.

5 people in a boat called Cyprus all with oars. 4 of them GC. 1 of them TC. If the four GC all rowed as hard as they could towards the island of peace an untiy and non violence - nothing the TC rower could do by rowing with all his strength towards the island of disharmony, violence and division could stop Cyprus (the boat) from arriving at the island of peace harmony and non violence. The TC rower could have slowed it down and made it harder by rowing in the opposite direction but as a single rower aginst 4 rowers they could not have stopped it. So when the boat in fact arrives at the island of disharmony violence and division it is simply not 'good enough' to say that both the TC and GC rowers are equally to blame - even if the TC rower in fact rowed towards this island as equaly hard as the GC rowers did. The GC rowers had a chance to row in a different direction regardless and the TC rower did not. That means to me the GC rowers have more of the blame for where the boat ended up because they had more ability to control its direction.

Does this analogy assume that all four GC rowers paddled towards the island of disharmony? I assume it does not.
Then, if the GC rowers are four times the number of TC rowers, it is all the more likely that at least one of them would react to the single rower that hindered their effort - if there ever was such an effort. I will assume that there were, in fact, two GC rowers who did that.
That, then, makes rowers for disharmony island 3 versus 2 harmony island rowers, eventually leading the boat to disharmony island.

Is that not to say that, because the GC rowers that reacted caused the boat to dock in the wrong island were more numerically (2 versus 1 TC), they are more to blame? Is this, then, not how mikkie interprets your argument - which you deny?

[erolz]

Is that not to say that, because the GC rowers that reacted caused the boat to dock in the wrong island were more numerically (2 versus 1 TC), they are more to blame? Is this, then, not how mikkie interprets your argument - which you deny?

My view in it's simplest form is that GC had more ability to control and determine where Cyprus ended up because there were more of them. When it then ended up in a mess they carry more of the responsibility for that because they had more ability to control it.

[-mikkie2-]

My view in it's simplest form...

I rest my case!

You fail to look at the bigger picture, where the TC community was heavily influenced by Turkey at the time and still does today.

Your analogy is a gross simplification and to me you are trying to excuse the TC actions as much as possible whilst trying to amplify those of the GC's.

From a political perspective, and that is how the people are influnced, there is equal culpability. The fact that one community is larger than the other is pretty much irrelevant imo.

[detailer]

detailer

Are you just another brainwashed TC or was that supposed to be a joke?

If you only look at what befel the tc's withour knowing what happened to the gc's then how can you have an objective opnion?

Well, I am asking you again; how many GC were killed? in which conditions? Are you going to tell me or not? I need your facts as well to be objective.

[erolz]

My view in it's simplest form...

I rest my case!

Simple or complicated, let's face it your case was well rested long before anything I have and could say and well divorced from any evidence.

You fail to look at the bigger picture, where the TC community was heavily influenced by Turkey at the time and still does today.

You deny that in the period 60-74 the GC community relative to the TC community had more ability to control and determine what happened in Cyprus, simply because they were the larger community?

Your analogy is a gross simplification and to me you are trying to excuse the TC actions as much as possible whilst trying to amplify those of the GC's.

And to me the fact that you absolutely can not bring yourself to accept that the GC community as the larger community has a larger blame for what happen in Cyprus is because you want to play down and excuse the GC communites responsibility and amplify the TC responsibilites for what happend in CYprus in this period.

From a political perspective, and that is how the people are influnced, there is equal culpability. The fact that one community is larger than the other is pretty much irrelevant imo.

Of course it is irrelevant as far as you are concerned because as far as you are concerned not admiting to yourself or anyone else that GC community could have ever had any greater responsibility for what transpired in Cyprus in any period is a basic part of your being. You need to believe this and thus you do.

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

You are not exhibiting an objective opinion here. You say that just because we are 4 x bigger we are 4 x to blame. I am not trying to excuse the actions of the GC's but rather to try and put them in to their proper perspective, which is what you fail to do or admit when defending the TC point of view.

The MORAL resposibility for what has happened lies equally with the politicians of both sides and that is irrespective of who outnumbers who.

[detailer]

Erol,

You are not exhibiting an objective opinion here. You say that just because we are 4 x bigger we are 4 x to blame. I am not trying to excuse the actions of the GC's but rather to try and put them in to their proper perspective, which is what you fail to do or admit when defending the TC point of view.

The MORAL resposibility for what has happened lies equally with the politicians of both sides and that is irrespective of who outnumbers who.

Mikkie,

How many GCs were killed?

[erolz]

Erol,

You are not exhibiting an objective opinion here. You say that just because we are 4 x bigger we are 4 x to blame.

I am exhibiting and objective opinion. If you wish to look at the details of what happened or you look at the simplest level it is clear that GC have more responsibilty in the perio 60-74.

I am not trying to excuse the actions of the GC's but rather to try and put them in to their proper perspective, which is what you fail to do or admit when defending the TC point of view.

I am saying that the proper perspective is one of blame accruing to both sides but not equally. Not in detail or in simplistic terms. To claim that the TC community is equally to blame when we did not have an equal ability to avoid these disasters because we were not eqaul numerical, physical or politicaly is not putting htings in their proper perspective. It's a blatant attempt to put them in a distorted perspective of equality that did not exits. By claiming TC community were equally reposnsible, had equal ability to avoid the disasdters and equaly to blame when they were not is by definition to excuse and minimise the actions of GC to some degree.

The MORAL resposibility for what has happened lies equally with the politicians of both sides and that is irrespective of who outnumbers who.

MORALY the actions of politicans accrues to those who empower those politicians. MORALY the larger and stonger have a greater responsibility than the smaller and weaker - because of their comparative size and strength.

[-mikkie2-]

detailer,

I am not going to sit here and do YOUR research. There are plenty of resources on the internet if you want to find out. MicAtCyp pointed you to one.

[-mikkie2-]

The politicians of the TC and GC were mainly empowered by the respective motherlands. Your politicians at the time were effectively controlled by Turkey.

Obvioulsy there was more scope for GC to pressure the TC due to their larger numbers and I do not deny that, but the people that perpertrated acts like this from both sides were following the will of their respective politicians and in my view that is where the root of the problem lies as it does till today.

You talk about political equality and yet, when it comes to taking responsibility for the past your leadership resists to take its fair share of responsibility.

To this day Erol the TC and Turkish leadership are rubbing our noses in it. At the most basic humanitarian level, they simply avoid and side track from taking responsibility as is the case with the fate of the missing for example.