Cyprus-Forum.com

[brother]

Mikkie wrote

WHEN HAVE I HEARD A SINGLE TURKISH CYPRIOT APOLOGISE FOR THE ATTROCITIES THAT TURKEY DID IN YOUR NAME IN 1974?

There is a whole thread on it from TC who apologised starting from me but never saw even one GC participate in it mikkie.


There you go:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1884

[MicAtCyp]

Erol,

The real reason the TCs were fleeing into enclaves is because their leadership and the TMT with the direction of Ankar wanted it to happen, planned it to happen, and used all available methods for it to happen. All evidence is that they wanted to create militarily strategic self supported areas that would unite together after a Turkish landing from the sea thus achieving taking half of Cyprus and their goal for TAKSIM. The plan was excecuted with mathematical accuracy and we see the results today.

Your failure to see this crystal clear historic truth all the way from it's roots to the end rather than from halfway to the end is disturbing to say the least. In other words you want to see and (you only see) the attacks of Grivas at TC military castle villages, without even questioning who and why formed those military castles, and what would happen if they were left intact. It was more than obvious that the plan of TMT was a)either the strategic castles are left intact in which case they would multiply them. or b)they are attacted in which case they would concentrate all the TC people inside bigger enclaves with their fullest of control.

On the other hand lets not forget the lunatics of the GC side wanting Enosis and thinking that each and every ordinary TC was their enemy and that they had a patriotic duty to make them leave or exterminate.So although the situation could at least be limited to the strategic castle villages that TMT was planing, it spread everywhere....

Do you think it is true that TC used force (violence) against TC to make them flee their homes?
Do you think it is untrue to say that the main (not only - but main) reason that TC fled their homes was GC violence and the threat of GC violence?

Here we go again..... So Erol, what was the main reason for the main reason? Enosis,Taksim, both, both plus other reasons?


********************************************************************

On the general subject of debates:Some people seem to translate the battle attitute of debates and the emotional attacks, as hate, effort to belittle, to put down, to degrade etc.The vast majority of debates do not aim at this.They aim at passing views or give-take knowledge or challenge.
What good do we get from these? More knowledge of course and respect for our counterparts.
Although sometimes something goes wrong and we get exactly the opposite.I beleive however this happens rarely.

[erolz]

The real reason the TCs were fleeing into enclaves is because their leadership and the TMT with the direction of Ankar wanted it to happen, planned it to happen, and used all available methods for it to happen.

No the main reason TC fled their homes was GC violence and the fear of GC violence against them.

What would make you flee your home? Your political leadership telling you to do so , or bands of armed men arrive in your village and telling you that if you do not leave they will shoot you and shooting you if you did not flee and or the knowledge that this had been done to your compatriots in nearby villages.

The most direct and effective 'available means' of making someone flee thier home is to go to their village and say 'leave or I will shoot you' and then to shoot some if they do not leave. There is not a single indpendent contemporary journalist rpoert of TC doing this to TC. There are countless such indepdent journalist comtemporary reports of GC doing this to TC.

All evidence is that they wanted to create militarily strategic self supported areas that would unite together after a Turkish landing from the sea thus achieving taking half of Cyprus and their goal for TAKSIM. The plan was excecuted with mathematical accuracy and we see the results today.

There is some eveidence that some TC elements had plans along these lines and I do not deny that. What there is not is any weight of evidence that TC drove TC from thier homes with violence in persuit of this goal.

Your failure to see this crystal clear historic truth all the way from it's roots to the end rather than from halfway to the end is disturbing to say the least.

That you can see it as 'crytal clear historical truth' that the main reason why TC fled their homes was being told to do so by TC leadership and not GC violence and murder and fear of such against them is to me beyond disturbing to say the least.

Here we go again..... So Erol, what was the main reason for the main reason? Enosis,Taksim, both, both plus other reasons?

The main reason TC fled their homes was GC violence and the fear of it against them. It was not the only reason but it was the main one. This is my view. It is a view that is entirely consistent with the hundreds of contemporary reports by journalist around the world. It is a views shared by the independent and respected reasercher who studied this issue in detail and is quote on the cyprus conflict website.

[magikthrill]

There is some eveidence that some TC elements had plans along these lines and I do not deny that. What there is not is any weight of evidence that TC drove TC from thier homes with violence in persuit of this goal.

there is also "some" evidence that "some" TC leaders provoked this violence erol.

[erolz]

there is also "some" evidence that "some" TC leaders provoked this violence erol.

This is just the argument that 'ok yes it was GC violenece that was the main reason TC fled their homes - but TC made us comit this violence so it is TC fault and not ours'

[Murtaza]

there is also "some" evidence that "some" TC leaders provoked this violence erol.

This is just the argument that 'ok yes it was GC violenece that was the main reason TC fled their homes - but TC made us comit this violence so it is TC fault and not ours'

wait!
So we helped wrong side
We should help greeks for killing you more easily

[-mikkie2-]

Brother

I did not see this thread. My comments were based on what I have been reading in the last few days.

I am sick and tired of hearing the same claptrap being said about 63-67 period when in that period both sides were actively pursuing their own goals to the detriment of Cyprus. For every action from one side there was an opposing action from the other. BOTH SIDES ARE EQUALLY GUILTY FOR NOT STOPPING THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE. For people like Erol to constantly pursue his view that the GC's are more to blame than the TC's simply does not accept the fact that culpability lies with everyone. Too many factors were at work to pinpoint the exact reasons for certain things hapenning.

My other point is that today we still see the same bullshit being used for psychological warfare against the other. I'M TIRED OF HEARING IT. I'M TIRED OF HEARING THE SAME LAME EXCUSES FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION.

[brother]

Mikkie i hear what you are saying and i am in the same mind frame as you, but unfortunately it will take a few more years and much more interaction between the 2 communities before we let it be water under the bridge and progress from this situation but i ask you like i ask myself to have faith in our ability to heal our wounds in time, just think a couple of years ago we were not evening talking and now we can at least debate it, so time will be our healer as we interact more and more.

[erolz]

Brother

I did not see this thread. My comments were based on what I have been reading in the last few days.

Well with respect that was not indicated in your post (all in caps) in any way. Try going back and readin what you sadi about TC appologising and perhaps you might consider an appology of your own?

I am sick and tired of hearing the same claptrap being said about 63-67 period when in that period both sides were actively pursuing their own goals to the detriment of Cyprus. For every action from one side there was an opposing action from the other.

Again we have this common GC inconsistancy (hypocrasy). As far as blame goes the relative population sizes are irrelevant (for some GC). There is simply an equality of blame that accrues equaly to each community - even though one community was 4 times larger (and stronger) that the other. As far as politicial equality goes it is an anthema (to some GC) that such can accrue equaly to each community. When it is poltical power we are talking about and not blamethere can be no equality between the communities. So blame is to be attributed on the basis of one community one 'unit of blame' and poltical power is to attributed on the basis of the larger community takes the larger share of poltical power.

BOTH SIDES ARE EQUALLY GUILTY FOR NOT STOPPING THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE

Again the issue of population sizes is ignored in this (by some GC). A larger community can unilateraly not engange in a cycle of violence without the realistic chance of that community being wiped from the face of the earth. A smaller community that unilateraly does not engage in the cycle of violence runs a very real risk of being wiped from the face of the earth. Yet in assigning guilt to each community for not engagin in a cycle of violence this reality is irrelevant. Even though the relative sizes of the communites means one can unilateral refuse to enegage in a cycle of violence at much lower realative risk to it's basic survival and the other can not.

For people like Erol to constantly pursue his view that the GC's are more to blame than the TC's simply does not accept the fact that culpability lies with everyone. Too many factors were at work to pinpoint the exact reasons for certain things hapenning.

I have never denied that both communites carry blame in the period 60-74 and after. I constantly refute (I have never pro actively started a discussion on who is to blame for what - only ever reacted to one) GC assertions that GC were 'equally' to blame in the period 60-74 or 'less' to blame in this period because I believe such assertions to be untrue. If you want to suggest that there were too mant factors at work to pinpoint 'blame' then you would have to accept that in the period 60-74 GC were 4 times more to blame than TC because there were 4 times more of them (and that ignores that they were more than 4 times more 'powerful' - polticaly, economicaly and physicaly). If you wish to agree this then I will accept it and ignore any of the 'details'.

My other point is that today we still see the same bullshit being used for psychological warfare against the other. I'M TIRED OF HEARING IT. I'M TIRED OF HEARING THE SAME LAME EXCUSES FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION.

So when GC (pro actively) claim that is was TC and T that were the main cause of TC fleeing their homes and not GC - do you see that as physchological warfare of GC against TC? If so why do you never comment on this. Or is it only when a TC reacts to such claims and refutes them that you see physcological warfare?

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

You still insist on just because the GC's are 4 or 5 x times the number of TC's that we are 4 or 5 x to blame. BULLSHIT!!!!

Look at events and see how for every action there was a reaction.

I do not want to sit here and argue about who was more to blame. IT IS POINTLESS because you are trying to absolve yourself of resbonsibility for what has happened in Cyprus as much as possible. You continue the blame game.

I for one do not accept or agree with the nationalist idiots that caused so much hardship to the TC's. Yes, as a community we did treat the TC's as 2nd class citizens for much of the time, my self personally I never have and as far as I know my family has not either. In much talk and discussion with fellow GC's we do rue the mistakes of the past, we do accept blame and we want an end of this mess, but your attitude does not allow for any meanigful discussion.