Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

You really are pushing your luck...

why? what would u do in my place? and what is the worst that can happen?

...the worst that will happen is that the plane itself has a problem, for which any legal recourse would be unclear, given that the airport is not recognised by ICAO, the International body you rely on for your travelling safely.

[Piratis]

What do you mean prove it ? Today I crossed from north to south and south to north, my original port of entry being Ercan. At border control was I stopped, questioned or had my passport scrutinised by GC authorities ? No. Neither entering RoC nor leaving RoC. There were dozens of German tourists crossing at the same time as me today. Were they stopped etc by RoC immigration/border control ? No. There were several Russians. Were they stopped ? No.

So all these people who'd come through an 'illegal' port of entry - who on your account are therefore 'illegals' themselves - were admitted into RoC with not a care in the world by the RoC authorities. I had visitors from a non-EU state recently. They entered in Larnaca, came north, and left by Larnaca again. No problem. Vistors earlier in the year came in via Ercan, went south for a week, and left via Ercan. No problem. A number of people I know from non-EU countries have been told, when they've come in through Larnaca and wanted to go north, that next time they should just enter through the north ! When immigration/border control give that advice for them to travel via an 'illegal' port then I think that merits the description 'encouragement'.

This happens day in day out. The RoC authorities know about the thousands and thousands of enteries through 'illegal' ports but clearly do not act as if these travellers are 'illegal'. That means that the RoC is complicit.

CopperLine, in Cyprus there are no borders, and no "border controls". In Cyprus there is a cease fire line that separates the free areas of the Republic of Cyprus from the areas of the Republic of Cyprus which are under the illegal Turkish occupation. You don't even know this basic fact and yet you feel qualified to explain much more complicated issues. Start with the basics first please.

When crossing the gates which separate the free areas of the Republic from the occupied areas of the Republic only your ID is checked. Republic of Cyprus doesn't do any "border control" at the check points and it doesn't do a criminal investigation for each person crossing to examine if they have been involved in any criminal activities in the past.

Within Cyprus the only legal airports are those designated by the relevant authorities of Republic of Cyprus. Republic of Cyprus has not designated any Ercan airport as a legal airport for entry in Cyprus.

As far as your ridiculous claim that RoC encourages the use of this airport you have to provide proof, something which of course you will be unable to do because your claim is nothing more than a lie.

Here is the position of the government of Cyprus on the issue:

1. “ERCAN” (TYMBOU) is a closed airport situated in the occupied part of the Republic of Cyprus, which the Government of Cyprus, as the sole legitimate and internationally recognized authority on the island, has declared since 1974 as an illegal point of entry into and exit from the Republic of Cyprus, for the reason of not being able to exercise control over the occupied part of its territory, as a result of the continuing Turkish military occupation. Under International law the Republic of Cyprus is the sole sovereign authority with exclusive jurisdiction to determine which of its airports on its territory are open and functioning, as well as the terms of their operation.

2. It is also important to note that “ERCAN” is located on property belonging to a significant number of Greek Cypriot refugees who were forcibly expelled from their properties by the invasion forces. These refugees still remain the legal owners of their properties and they have never consented for the construction of the airport and its use as such. In that regard reference is made to the cases of Loizidou vs Turkey and Xenides-Arestis vs Turkey in which the European Court of Human Rights held that the applicants remain the legal owners of their property in the occupied areas and that Turkey continues to be in breach of Article 1, Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

3. The so-called “ERCAN” airport is not recognized by ICAO, which is the highest international authority on legal issues relating to civil aviation in general. ICAO’s policy on matters relating to Cyprus is in conformity with that of the United Nations and the international community. Consequently, ICAO recognizes only the Republic of Cyprus and its Government as the sole representative of the whole island. It should also be stressed that according to ICAO decisions of 1974, 1975 and 1977, a country not exercising temporarily effective control over its territory by reason of military occupation, does not lose its sovereign rights over such territory and the airspace above it.

4. Furthermore, Turkey, in violation of the Chicago Convention on the International Civil Aviation, the constitutional instrument of ICAO, and its Annexes, to which 188 countries, including the Republic of Cyprus and Turkey, are States-Parties to and following a number of illegal acts after the Turkish invasion, proclaimed the establishment of “Ercan advisory service” which lies in the northern part of Nicosia FIR. The illegal operation of the unrecognized “ERCAN advisory service” causes serious risks over safety, flight efficiency and airspace development in the region and in particular increased workload and inconvenience both for aircrews and Nicosia ACC Controllers and leads to misunderstandings due to the intervention in the provision of Air Traffic Control Services. Ankara ACC should be called upon to adopt standard ICAO procedures and transfer southbound traffic to the contiguous Nicosia control and to take practical steps for the restoration of the voice link between Ankara and Nicosia ACC's.

5. Any possible use by international traffic, of the illegally operating airports, such as “ERCAN” (TYMBOU), violates International law, U.N. Security Council resolutions, E.U. positions and contravenes the ICAO and the EUROCONTROL Conventions, and their respective norms, standards, procedures and recommended practices.

http://www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/mfa2006.nsf/c ... endocument

Therefore there is no doubt that using the illegal airports in the occupied areas is illegal.

The only reason that Republic of Cyprus doesn't actively seek to find and prosecute those that commit this illegality is that many TCs use this illegal airport and if Republic of Cyprus prosecuted them it would mean far less TCs crossing to the free areas and therefore far less interaction between the two communities.

In short it is a goodwill measure which overlooks this illegality (like many other illegalities) by the TCs, hoping that the TCs will appreciate the tolerance that RoC shows and that this will help for the solution of the Cyprus Problem and the unification of our country, which is the primary aim of Republic of Cyprus.

Therefore the question is not whether Tymbou/"Ercan" is legal or not. There is absolutely no doubt that it is not legal and there is no doubt that those using it are committing an offense.

The question is:

Should Republic of Cyprus continue to show goodwill toward TCs? Should RoC continue not to prosecute TCs for offenses such as using illegal airports, illegal use of GC land etc, and should RoC continue to offer to them things like free health care and other benefits for which they paid no taxes for?

Do the TCs appreciate the goodwill shown by Republic of Cyprus, and will this goodwill help for the true unification of Cyprus? Or is this goodwill taken for granted by the TCs, who no matter how much goodwill we show they will continue to want partition and they will continue to serve the Turkish interests on our island?

[CopperLine]

Thanks Piratis for confirming what I was saying.

I said that the ports in the north were described as 'illegal' : you confirmed that.

I said that people travelling from/to those illegal ports to/from the south were not treated as illegals : you confirmed that.

I said that the movement of such people was known by the authorities in the south : you confirmed that.

I said that the authorities in the south were complicit in those movements : you said it was 'goodwill'. Whatever; you say tomato and I say tomato.

I said various people that I know have been encouraged (myself included) to use 'illegal' ports by the authorities in the south. You call this a lie. I'm not really bothered whether you believe me or not. Call it what you like, it has happened many times, I've been witness to it. I'd call it 'denial' on your part.

You quote approvingly the RoC on the ICAO position as follows :

Any possible use by international traffic, of the illegally operating airports, such as “ERCAN” (TYMBOU), violates International law, U.N. Security Council resolutions, E.U. positions and contravenes the ICAO and the EUROCONTROL Conventions, and their respective norms, standards, procedures and recommended practices.

[my emphasis added]

Well for "any possible use" the RoC authorities themselves, never mind international agencies, are doing bugger all about these so called 'illegalities'. That just signals to me complicity and connivance.

Don't get me wrong : I understand perfectly well why there is a public rhetoric insisting on the illegality of northern ports. But you also need to understand why there is a practical 'honouring in the breach'.


Finally you portray these movements as a goodwill gesture to TCs. If you could just take your blinkers off for a few minutes you'd appreciate that this is a policy which dozens of nationalities enjoy in the thousands of people.

[Piratis]

The airports in occupied areas are illegal because Republic of Cyprus, the one and only state on the island of Cyprus who has authority to designate airports in Cyprus, says so.

Those who use the illegal airports are committing an offense.

The only reason those people are currently not actively prosecuted is the current policy of Republic of Cyprus of being extremely forgiving to the TCs (and of course there couldn't be one way for TCs and another way for foreigners, which is how some others take advantage of this).

So if you don't care about the fact that the "Ercan" airport is illegal, and you don't care about the fact that using it is an offense, and all you care is whether you will manage to get away with the crime or not, then yes, you could get away with it for now.

However offenses are not erased no matter how much time passed from the time they were committed. So if in 1 or 2 or 4 years the policy of Republic of Cyprus changes (something which is very possible in my opinion) and it starts to actively prosecute people that used that airport, then many of those that used it will find themselves in trouble because they have committed an offense, Republic of Cyprus has even warned them about it in the most official way, and the excuse "But Cooperline of the Cyprus-Forum told to me that it is OK to use that airport" will not be an excuse that can stand in a court.

Therefore I would suggest to Salena and everybody else, especially those living in the free areas or considering of visiting Cyprus again after some time, to do what is legal and not to gamble that they will be able to commit an offense and get away with it for ever.

[Get Real!]

The RoC authorities know about the thousands and thousands of enteries through 'illegal' ports but clearly do not act as if these travellers are 'illegal'. That means that the RoC is complicit.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if it were not for EU accession severely complicating matters, the RoC would’ve been steadfast with the stringent policy they implemented for more than three decades.

I do NOT for one moment though believe that you were “encouraged” to use illegal ports by the government of Cyprus which SHOULD NOT be confused with a suggestion from a slack individual.

[CopperLine]

Piratis
There'll be a lot of egg on a lot of faces and RoC will become the laughing stock of the EU if what you have suggested transpires. If in a few months time or a few years time the policy changes - which of course it could - and current users of 'illegal' ports were to be prosecuted (lord knows how they'd be identified, but that's a problem for RoC to sort out should the time come) then RoC policy would be seen for a farce.

Unfortunately there are people on this forum who take the law to be a pure and unambiguous matter. It is not, it never has been, and never will be. What is important is the connection between policy and law. The current policy of RoC is (a) not to prosecute users of 'illegal' ports, (b) not to treat the effective users of those ports as law breakers.

It is manifestly not an offence currently in the eyes of the RoC authorities - border control, immigration, police, courts, etc - to use the illegal ports. If it was the evidence would be undeniable : the courts and the prisons would be overflowing with 'offending' travellers. But they're not.

[Piratis]

There'll be a lot of egg on a lot of faces and RoC will become the laughing stock of the EU if what you have suggested transpires.

Says who? You?

I believe it is the contrary. Laughing stock we could be now that we do not enforce some of our laws because we are trying to be forgiving with the TCs. When this policy will change everybody, including you, will be forced to show some more respect to RoC and either follow the laws, or try to stay away from the RoC authorities from the fear that you can be prosecuted for the illegalities and offenses you have committed.

[Zorba]

i am not worried about stamping here. in istanbul they DO stamp and i get a huge visa sticker in my pass with 2 dates on it. so it will be obvious that i went to istanbul even if i avoid stamping here....

Here today,prison tomorrow?

[Selena79]

so guys, i am happy to announce that i am back, and everything went smooth and fine. when i show my EU passport no one is interested anymore where and why do i go.

My impression is that this whole legal and illegal stuff is only an issue for cypriots (both t and g) and turks. the only guya who could make profit out of leaving cyprus from the greek side are the 3 aircompanies. But RoC coudnt care less, when do i and where do i leave the island.

Just for the record: it was the 3 of us in the middle of the night coming through the check point (on foot, with luggage, couldnt be more obvious where do we come from) they had a look at my nationality (didnt even open my pass) wished good night and smiled. thats it.

and for my conscious: as long as greek cypriots go there to play in the casino, i wont feel bad using the airport...

[tessintrnc]

How was Istanbul Selena? Did you enjoy the city?
Tess