Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Bananiot asked:

"P.S. Nikitas, which two independed states are you referring to?"

Hypothetically speaking, if there was a 82-18 split and two independent states established on the island. It is a hypothesis on two levels, one that such a split could be agreed upon, and two, that the northern TC state would ever be allowed to be truly independent, which I doubt.

[Bananiot]

Utopia, Piratis, is to expect that Turkey will just fold in and that we will get our chance to free the occupied lands. Utopia is to believe that the situation can remain as it is today and the "enemy" will just wait for us to get strong and attack it. Utopia is to insist that Turkey can end up with the losers in another world or regional war so that we can tear its flesh. Have you ever pondered what will happen to us if the balance of power shifts even worse in our favour? What about if the reverse holds true and we end up with the losers?

[Bananiot]

I thought you were talking in terms of BBF, Nikitas.

[Viewpoint]

Can you explaing why partition on the 82-18 lines would be fatal in the long run, when partition along the 63-37 lines has not been fatal in the last 34 years? I am really curious to know what dangers you perceive.

Nikitas, I am surprised at your question. De facto partition is what we have had over 34 years which is not ordained by law. Here we are talking about de jure partition with our blessings and the blessings of the international community. Two hundred and fifty K borders with a potentially dangerous neighbour and above all extinction of Cypriot culture.

What Bananiot doesn't understand is that with something like Annan plan the partition would again be de jure, with us officially recognizing that the north part of Cyprus belongs to the Turks. North Cyprus would then officially and with our signature be a "Turkish Cyprus", with the only difference that instead of this "Turkish Cyprus" being totally independent, it would be in a loose confederation along with "Greek Cyprus".

Something like what Serbia-Montenegro used to be and even more loose.

Such loose confederation therefore would make de jure the partition of the island along ethnic lines, and what we will have would be a partnership between "Turkish Cyprus" and "Greek Cyprus" that would give disproportionally large amount of land and power to TCs, and would also give the power to Turkey to control the whole island. Turkey would then be able to do whatever she feels like against Cyprus, and we would not even be able to complain at the EU or UN as a state, since the TCs would use their veto to stop Cyprus from doing so. This is like the dream solution for Turkey.

After an Annan kind of partition we would be the ones begging for a clean partition (since there would be no other alternative, having already recognized that north Cyprus belongs to the Turks), but of course the Turks would not accept such thing until they gained everything they wanted from us (EU accession for Turkey, our tax money for their development, take any potential oil in our sea etc).

And if/when they decide that they want a total partition there will be nothing that can stop them since we would have already agreed that north Cyprus is Turkish, giving to them self-determination rights over what would then be officially regarded as their own separate land. And please don't tell me about some legalistic parameters in the constitution that can stop such thing from happening. Such parameters existed in Czechoslovakia, in former Yugoslavia, in former USSR etc. History proves that such parameters mean absolutely nothing.

Its one thing negotiating a good land split in a BBF which is acceptbale and another to begin a negotiation on a final split. If an acceptable BBF is not accompished where Turkey has no say on the island then the best we can do is kick up such a fuss against partition that it is sugar coated entirely in our favour in order for us to accept it.

Start a negotiation on tyring to achieve 82-18 split and we will end up with an official Turkish state on 40% of the island.

As a Cypriot I do not accept anyone dictating to me that one part of my island cannot be my country anymore. No one has the right to divide this island and condemn all future generations to half of it. If a BBF is not agreed then the struggle needs to continue.

I agree with DT. 18%-82% should be the land distribution within a BBF with a right content in general. This way if the Turks ever decide to split off they would at least know that they can not get more land than what proportionally belongs to them.

If such BBF can not be achieved then the best thing we can do is to continue our just struggle, and maintain the right of Republic of Cyprus for sovereignty over the whole island. The partition would then continue to be only de facto and not de jure, and as Bananiot just admitted a de facto partition is less bad than a de jure partition.

This way, in the short term we can guarantee that our enemy would suffer consequences for their crimes and illegalities against us, and also that they will not be able to develop as much and compete with us, harming our economy.

In the long term, maintaining our sovereignty rights over the whole of our island could prove essential in the liberation of our country. The balance of power does change, despite what some short sighted people here seem to think. Turkey is an unstable country torn between Islamists and Secularists and between Turks and Kurds. Many things can go extremely wrong in Turkey, and if Turkey ever finds its way in the wrong side of a conflict then giving back north Cyprus to their rightful owners would be the first thing that will be done to punish Turkey. Something like what happened with Rhodos and the Dodecanese that were given to Greece after Italy lost WWII.

You cannot be more wrong we do not want to give Turkey the power to intervene in our daily business only as a guarantor power in times of crisis, the criteria can be pre determined.

[Nikitas]

If past experience is anything to go by, the embassies of the three guranator powers along with that of the USA are will become the centers of power on the island.

Avoiding that pitfall will take lots of clever manouvering.

[Viewpoint]

Why should we allow Turkey the right to rule us?

[Piratis]

Utopia, Piratis, is to expect that Turkey will just fold in and that we will get our chance to free the occupied lands.

Who ever said that they will "fold in"? When other Greek territories and islands were liberated from the once mighty Ottoman empire did the Ottomans just decide to "fold in"? If we are not stupid enough to sign away our lands to the Turks then we might have a chance to free our occupied lands. If we sign them off to them from now then this chance will all but disappear.

Utopia is to believe that the situation can remain as it is today and the "enemy" will just wait for us to get strong and attack it.

I never said anything about Cyprus attacking Turkey. Did Latvia attack Russia in order to gain its freedom? Did Greece attack Italy in order to win the war and get Rhodos and the Dodecanese?

What I say, which is not an utopia at all but a fact, is that Turkey is a very unstable country, torn between Islamists and Secularists, and between Turks and Kurds and many bad things can happen to them. Did you know that Saddam Hussein of Iraq used to be a best friend of the Americans once, just like Bin Laden?

Utopia is to insist that Turkey can end up with the losers in another world or regional war so that we can tear its flesh.

So you believe that Turkey can not lose in any war? So much your love for them has blinded you? You are the one who is living in an Utopia my friend.

Have you ever pondered what will happen to us if the balance of power shifts even worse in our favour? What about if the reverse holds true and we end up with the losers?

If that happens then it will be much more difficult for the Turks to invade us again now that Cyprus is an EU member and while Cyprus has some army to protect itself. Furthermore they would have no excuse to do so.

If on the other hand we accept something like the Annan plan, then it will be very easy for the Turks to create another 1958 or another 1963 and then invade again our totally undefended country. And we would not even be able to complain about it at the UN or EU because our "partners" would be calling it a "peace operation" and our word would not count any more than theirs.

So I countered every argument that you made, but you avoided answering the arguments that I made in my previous post.

[Piratis]

You cannot be more wrong we do not want to give Turkey the power to intervene in our daily business only as a guarantor power in times of crisis, the criteria can be pre determined.

So you still think that Turkey gives you something without taking something back in return for her "services" to you? Maybe you are buying the Turkish propaganda, but we are not. We know full well that Turkey is in Cyprus for her own interests, and not because she wants to "save TCs from the evil GCs" as your propaganda claims.

Today and for the last 50+ years Turkey has the absolute control over your leadership. They offer to you unfair gains on our loss by using their military might to force and blackmail us, and in return you offer to them the control over Cyprus that they want. (today control over north Cyprus, and you hope control over the whole Cyprus soon)

When you know full well that you have made unfair and disproportional gains of land and power on our loss simply because of the brute force and blackmail applied by Turkey, would you ever dare to dissatisfy your benefactor who uses his big guns to secure for you all those unfair gains?

You will never do that. The unfair gains that Turkey gives to you on our loss is a guarantee that you will continue serving the Turkish interests on the loss of the interests of the great majority of the Cypriot people.

[Viewpoint]

You cannot be more wrong we do not want to give Turkey the power to intervene in our daily business only as a guarantor power in times of crisis, the criteria can be pre determined.

So you still think that Turkey gives you something without taking something back in return for her "services" to you? Maybe you are buying the Turkish propaganda, but we are not. We know full well that Turkey is in Cyprus for her own interests, and not because she wants to "save TCs from the evil GCs" as your propaganda claims.

Today and for the last 50+ years Turkey has the absolute control over your leadership. They offer to you unfair gains on our loss by using their military might to force and blackmail us, and in return you offer to them the control over Cyprus that they want. (today control over north Cyprus, and you hope control over the whole Cyprus soon)

When you know full well that you have made unfair and disproportional gains of land and power on our loss simply because of the brute force and blackmail applied by Turkey, would you ever dare to dissatisfy your benefactor who uses his big guns to secure for you all those unfair gains?

You will never do that. The unfair gains that Turkey gives to you on our loss is a guarantee that you will continue serving the Turkish interests on the loss of the interests of the great majority of the Cypriot people.

You and people like you are the reason why we side with Turkey and will continue to do so , you cannot see further than the end of your nose, you really need to listen to Bananiot as he tells you that you need to befriend TCs not push them away but you continue to push them away and promote that GCs live in hope of Turkey becoming weak enough for you to take the whole of Cyprus.

If TCs felt they could trust and prosper with GCs don't you think they would choose to benefit from a new situation and without having to waiting for financial support? Don't you understand that a more independent TC north will be able to move closer to the GC position if they trusted there was going to be no pitfalls and GCs were committed to this??

[Viewpoint]

Duplication