Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sabre]

Anybody who seriously wants to understand modern Turkey and the reasons for the poor international standing of Turkish universities (which eliminates 99% of the Greek speakers on this forum who simply seach for comforting reinforcment of their simple-minded racist stereotypyes which dictate, for example, that untermenschen like the Turks could never have universities, only "universities") has to examine the impact of the military coup of 12 September 1980 on academic life in that country.

In the wake of this coup, large numbers of teachers and academics were detained and tortured. About one thousand academics were thrown out of their jobs. Virtually the first act of the Kenan Evren junta was to abolish the 1963 constitution which guaranteed academic freedom and the organisation of civil society, and to replace it with a much more restrictive constitution. One of the first peices of legislation enacted by the junta was a new higher education law which ushered in the detested Higher Education Council, with the result that all academic life became tightly controlled by the generals. Soldiers are good at fighting wars, but not at running universities, and not surprisingly the academic standing of Turkish universities plumetted. In the sixties and seventies, the Middle Eastern Technical University in Ankara was considered to be a regional heavyweight - now it is a minnow. The reason is because the CIA, the sponsors of the 1980 coup, wished it to be this way - or were prepared to accept this a regrettable side effect of bringing a fascist military dictatorship to power.

Will this state of affairs last for ever? I don't think so. I believe that eventually Turkey will be able to cast off the legacy of 12 September, even though it has probably cost the country two decades in terms of development.

It is far more comforting to brush all this under the carpet and let the current poor international standing of Turkish universities reinforce superficial stereotypes. How can a bunch of slit-eyed (actually the Turks of Anatolia have mixed so much with other peoples that they no longer have slit eyes!) huns (actually the Huns were a different people from the Turks who, for example, destroyed the Turkish Seljuq Empire!) who wandered in from the backwaters of Central Asia (actually my mother has just returned from a week in Uzbekistan, where she was awestruck by the architectural marvels of Bukhara and Samarkant, a legacy of the vibrant Turkic civilisation that one flourished there!) ever learn to write their names, let alone aspire to run a university.

Cherish these stereotypes all you like. Turkey is a major neighbour of Cyprus which occupies one third of its territory and aspires to control the whole island. This threat can only be encountered with a sober, realistic appraisal of developments in Turkey, one that accepts that there can be universities and not "universities" in that country.

What, you are kidding!!

You seem like such an expert on Turkey. It is so amazing that a country such as this exists in Eurasia. So much regression and backwardness typical of many other Eastern nations such as Pakistan, Afghanistan etc etc. Totally amazing.

[Tim Drayton]

Thank you Tim, very well said.

Thanks.

Also, instead of picking one thesis out of the blue and using it as a stick with which to beat Turkish academia, you could just as easily pick the work of Turkish academic Ayhan Aktar, who specialises in sociology and politics, and use it as an example of positive developments in the Turkish academic world. Most of his work has focussed on Turkish nationalism in the Republic and the disastrous effect that this has had on non-Turkish minorities in Turkey. He has dealt with all of the biggest taboos in modern-day Turkey such as the fate of the Armenians, the Wealth Tax in World War II, and the anti-Christian riots of 1955. He is a true iconoclast who is not afraid to challenge the received wisdom on these events. I do not believe that he could have published some of his recent work even ten years ago in Turkey.

Why is some obscure thesis more respresentative of Turkish academic life than the works of a academic with countless books and articles to his name?

[Tim Drayton]

It is so amazing that a country such as this exists in Eurasia. So much regression and backwardness typical of many other Eastern nations such as Pakistan, Afghanistan etc etc. Totally amazing.

Indeed, within the Hellenic nationalsit stereotype, the Turks are such backward, primitve untermenschen that they could never run a modern country. Yet they do. Does this not suggest that you need to go back and examine the premises on which you operate?

[Sabre]

It is so amazing that a country such as this exists in Eurasia. So much regression and backwardness typical of many other Eastern nations such as Pakistan, Afghanistan etc etc. Totally amazing.

Indeed, within the Hellenic nationalsit stereotype, the Turks are such backward, primitve untermenschen that they could never run a modern country. Yet they do. Does this not suggest that you need to go back and examine the premises on which you operate?

Now what premises would that be? You seem to be an expert on me also!

You are a clever dick.

Now, what makes you think that I am a Greek or Cypriot?

[Tim Drayton]

Now, what makes you think that I am a Greek or Cypriot?

If you are not, it just shows how easily stereotypes are born, and how we should be on our guard against them.

[Oracle]

Tim

I can't help thinking that you have deliberately missed the point. It is not about the looks nor the origins of the Turks. It is about the here and now. The minds of the people our President has to negotiate with. The reasoning behind the differences in attitude we experience. The willful and deliberate subjugation of another nation (us and others) and the casual disregard of world order.

These habits / practices are products of the education system. So how does the Turkish tertiary education system produce the current mindset of people that can comfortably ignore International Law and abuse Human rights? Yet can simply "justify" them (otherwise how can they live with themselves) by virtue of say so and Might. What emanates from that country that instills fear in all their neighbours? .... such that they are kept down trying to resist this boiling belligerence from spilling into their own cultures.

Morality and virtue, no matter how much we all inherit, can only be improved by communally/constitutionally instilled learning.

What kind of education system produces such morally unquestioning intransigence in the Turks that our government has to deal with?

Maybe it is not their education system but their Kemalist alternative "education" which is predominant during their formative years that shapes them to their own form of "logic". As Henry Miller observed they have a mania for "logic" but it is bad logic.

[Sabre]

Now, what makes you think that I am a Greek or Cypriot?

If you are not, it just shows how easily stereotypes are born, and how we should be on our guard against them.

In just 5 posts, you figured me for a steorotypical Greek nationalist and a racist to boot. I just responded to what you yourself outlined which was a basic and repressed education system, violations of free speech and human rights. This is not what you would call a "modern country".

[Oracle]

Now, what makes you think that I am a Greek or Cypriot?

If you are not, it just shows how easily stereotypes are born, and how we should be on our guard against them.

In just 5 posts, you figured me for a steorotypical Greek nationalist and a racist to boot. I just responded to what you yourself outlined which was a basic and repressed education system, violations of free speech and human rights. This is not what you would call a "modern country".

Excellent response ... Tim is one of our few resident self-assessed "liberals" that are above the common shortcomings with which they prefer to label others

[Tim Drayton]

Now, what makes you think that I am a Greek or Cypriot?

If you are not, it just shows how easily stereotypes are born, and how we should be on our guard against them.

In just 5 posts, you figured me for a steorotypical Greek nationalist and a racist to boot. I just responded to what you yourself outlined which was a basic and repressed education system, violations of free speech and human rights. This is not what you would call a "modern country".

You missed my main point, which was one of self-criticism. I did indeed jump to the counclusion that you were a "steorotypical Greek nationalist ", and have realised my mistake. As I said, we must all be on the guard against jumping to stereotypical conclusions, something to which human psychology predisposes us.

[Bananiot]

Well in this case I have to confess that for a while I was predisposed to think that Oracle was a turkish nationalist desguised as a greek nationalist in order to mock greekness. I still have this impression despite the fact that she has revealed herself.