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How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:08 pm

Cem wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:You are both dreaming, Turkey is not a European country that can embrace and adopt EU principles, the sheer fact that if Turkey gets anywhere near entry she will have the biggest say in the EU according to population will ensure that the goals posts will continue to change so as not to allow full membership. I applaud France and Germany for being honest and saying that only special partnership will be available, the others are bullshiting as they would not allow Turkey into the EU, they will use aby excuse especially the GCs to keep her out.

Just exactly have I been saying thats racist? I support either a level playing field for people to choose which side they wish to reside and under which administration, whats racist about this. I support all refugees get rights back to their properties where physically possible and compensation for those where it is not.

I support all armies GO after a comprehensive solution is agreed.

I support Maraş be returned after a comprehensive solution is agreed.

I support settlers on both sides go home after applying EU principles.

But knowing that neither side has vision or the desire to compromise on the above to create a new united Cyprus, agreed partition is the only real viable solution, feel free to prove me wrong.


Admitting that Turkey will help finding a solution to CyProb, still, she will never be a full member of E.U.

In case Turkey turns nasty, RoC has the power to veto, that much is agreed.

What Roc and Greece don't have, is the power to help to speed up Turkey's admission in the event of a solution to Cyprob.

This unfortunately something that can not happen as there are plenty of other E.U states opposed to her membership not only France and Germany, the big boys of E.U.

So, what we have here is an asymmetrical power situation.

I personally both like and respect president Christophias, but I think he should revise his strategy if it is solely banking on Turkey's (improbable) E.U membership.


The biggest obstacle to Turkey's EU accession, is Turkey itself! Turkey must first make up its mind, if it truly wants to become a European, and then an EU member state. I do not much agree with Cem's assessment. First of all, the positive image that Turkey will attain, by truly doing its best for a solution in Cyprus to be found (which translates into ridding itself of its illegitimate so-called red lines,) will give an entirely new dynamic to its EU accession prospects. Sarkozy and Merkel won't be there forever. Secondly, Turkey must realise that running behind parochial policies, methods and practices, internally, is not helping at all those in the EU that want to help her EU accession, and is strengthening the hand of those (fewer) that do not want to. I am sure that if Turkey truly does work on these two issues -Cyprus and its internal democratization, its EU accession will come a lot easier than they themselves, and most of us, imagine.

Trying not to change to the better, because of being afraid of the change itself and feeling more comfortable by staying the same, and then blaming it on the others for not showing enough eagerness to accept you as you want to remain, is a truly childish attitude. Wanting to change to the better must be an on-going self-motivated trade, and not one based on whether others are promising or not-promising you something!
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:28 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Cem wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:You are both dreaming, Turkey is not a European country that can embrace and adopt EU principles, the sheer fact that if Turkey gets anywhere near entry she will have the biggest say in the EU according to population will ensure that the goals posts will continue to change so as not to allow full membership. I applaud France and Germany for being honest and saying that only special partnership will be available, the others are bullshiting as they would not allow Turkey into the EU, they will use aby excuse especially the GCs to keep her out.

Just exactly have I been saying thats racist? I support either a level playing field for people to choose which side they wish to reside and under which administration, whats racist about this. I support all refugees get rights back to their properties where physically possible and compensation for those where it is not.

I support all armies GO after a comprehensive solution is agreed.

I support Maraş be returned after a comprehensive solution is agreed.

I support settlers on both sides go home after applying EU principles.

But knowing that neither side has vision or the desire to compromise on the above to create a new united Cyprus, agreed partition is the only real viable solution, feel free to prove me wrong.


Admitting that Turkey will help finding a solution to CyProb, still, she will never be a full member of E.U.

In case Turkey turns nasty, RoC has the power to veto, that much is agreed.

What Roc and Greece don't have, is the power to help to speed up Turkey's admission in the event of a solution to Cyprob.

This unfortunately something that can not happen as there are plenty of other E.U states opposed to her membership not only France and Germany, the big boys of E.U.

So, what we have here is an asymmetrical power situation.

I personally both like and respect president Christophias, but I think he should revise his strategy if it is solely banking on Turkey's (improbable) E.U membership.


The biggest obstacle to Turkey's EU accession, is Turkey itself! Turkey must first make up its mind, if it truly wants to become a European, and then an EU member state. I do not much agree with Cem's assessment. First of all, the positive image that Turkey will attain, by truly doing its best for a solution in Cyprus to be found (which translates into ridding itself of its illegitimate so-called red lines,) will give an entirely new dynamic to its EU accession prospects. Sarkozy and Merkel won't be there forever. Secondly, Turkey must realise that running behind parochial policies, methods and practices, internally, is not helping at all those in the EU that want to help her EU accession, and is strengthening the hand of those (fewer) that do not want to. I am sure that if Turkey truly does work on these two issues -Cyprus and its internal democratization, its EU accession will come a lot easier than they themselves, and most of us, imagine.

Trying not to change to the better, because of being afraid of the change itself and feeling more comfortable by staying the same, and then blaming it on the others for not showing enough eagerness to accept you as you want to remain, is a truly childish attitude. Wanting to change to the better must be an on-going self-motivated trade, and not one based on whether others are promising or not-promising you something!


You do not need to camaflouge the fact that Turkeys entry into the EU will be a miracle, by the time it is ready the population will be near on 90 million which will mean they will have the biggest weight in the EU, can you see other EU members accepting they allow Turkey to take control if the EU should survive?

Your intention is clearly to keep your leverage over Turkey and to dangle the EU carrot before them, from your perspective this is wise and if I were in your position I would promote the same but you should be honest about. Loss of Turkeys perspective would mean disaster for the Cyprus problem as Turkey together with the TCs would turn their backs on unfiying for ever. You can compğlain to whom ever you wish het as many resolutions as you can it will mean nothing if no sanctions are imposed on Turkey and seeing nothing has been done for the last 34 years cant really see the international arena rushing to solve your problems.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:28 pm

No VP, my intention is not to maintain any leverage on Turkey. In fact, I am one of those that firmly believe the RoC should take a much tougher stance against Turkey, which translates into freezing completely its EU accession process by year 2009, if it doesn’t take steps in normalizing its relations with the RoC and towards changing its attitude visa vie a solution; and I firmly believe that RoC should also pressure though the EU and the UN so that Turkey accepts the ICJ jurisdiction and abide to it, in ruling on the illegality of its 1974 invasion and 35 year long occupation of northern Cyprus. Furthermore, I am among those that believe the RoC should pressure through the EU, so that the Council of Europe (CoE) calls upon Turkey to abide by the ECtHR ruling on the case of Cyprus vs. Turkey, and if not, to begin a process of kicking Turkey out of the CoE for the continuing violation of the entire Cypriot people’s human rights.

If you cannot realize and accept that Turkey’s ambition to maintain and expand its suzerainty over the whole of Cyprus (its territory, airspace and waters,) through a skewed solution of the Cyprus issue, is an entirely illegitimate one; I am sorry but there isn’t much we can really talk about!
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:28 pm

Kifeas wrote:No VP, my intention is not to maintain any leverage on Turkey. In fact, I am one of those that firmly believe the RoC should take a much tougher stance against Turkey, which translates into freezing completely its EU accession process by year 2009, if it doesn’t take steps in normalizing its relations with the RoC and towards changing its attitude visa vie a solution; and I firmly believe that RoC should also pressure though the EU and the UN so that Turkey accepts the ICJ jurisdiction and abide to it, in ruling on the illegality of its 1974 invasion and 35 year long occupation of northern Cyprus. Furthermore, I am among those that believe the RoC should pressure through the EU, so that the Council of Europe (CoE) calls upon Turkey to abide by the ECtHR ruling on the case of Cyprus vs. Turkey, and if not, to begin a process of kicking Turkey out of the CoE for the continuing violation of the entire Cypriot people’s human rights.

If you cannot realize and accept that Turkey’s ambition to maintain and expand its suzerainty over the whole of Cyprus (its territory, airspace and waters,) through a skewed solution of the Cyprus issue, is an entirely illegitimate one; I am sorry but there isn’t much we can really talk about!


There are plenty of things we could talk about but you feel uncomfortable hearing other people viewpoints when they differ from yours but all the same this is a public forum and everyone can contribute. Obviously you think differently from your current leaders and even your pig headed papadop. Why do you not campaign for your beliefs and promote them to see how far you will get, are you afraid of the lack of real support which you have not had for the last 34 years or being further labelled the negative side after rejecting the AP? Kifeas I still feel you have problems coming to terms with accepting TCs as an equal community to yours the GCs community, you tend to concentrate more on property and wealth, which we have agreed you should be entitled to via a comprehensive solution that will address both sides concerns.
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Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:04 am

...in my mind, Turkey is not yet passed the Treaty of Lausanne.

Turkish Cyprus complying Otttoman archives to show right to properties
Experts are working to comply Otttoman archives to prove Turkish Cyprus' right to properties, according to Turkish, Greek reports.
Friday, 17 October 2008 11:26
World Bulletin / News Desk

Experts are working to comply Otttoman archives to prove Turkish Cyprus' right to properties, according to Turkish, Greek reports.

The Turkish-language daily Star said, "A group of foreign experts have been working on a report [based on archival material]. Some of the findings will give strength to the Turkish Cypriot position on properties".

Also Cyprus Mail said an anonymous source close to the Turkish Cypriot authorities confirmed the report, but gave no details.

Turkish Daily reported "some 100 experts had been combing Ottoman archives since 2005. The Ottomans ruled the island for more than 300 years since 1571. The experts had compiled a 250-volume report entitled 'Cyprus Land and Property'."

The report also said the report's findings would come as a shock to those Greek Cypriots trying to extract money and land from north Cyprus and that the shock would be delivered when Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat unveiled the report at a news conference next week.

But the source told Cyprus Mail "No such political decision has been made,"adding that the report was seen as a supportive element in ongoing negotiations for a settlement with the Greek Cypriot side, to show the right to Turkish Cypriot possession in the north.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=29910
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Postby Expatkiwi » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:24 am

Kifeas wrote:No VP, my intention is not to maintain any leverage on Turkey. In fact, I am one of those that firmly believe the RoC should take a much tougher stance against Turkey, which translates into freezing completely its EU accession process by year 2009, if it doesn’t take steps in normalizing its relations with the RoC and towards changing its attitude visa vie a solution; and I firmly believe that RoC should also pressure though the EU and the UN so that Turkey accepts the ICJ jurisdiction and abide to it, in ruling on the illegality of its 1974 invasion and 35 year long occupation of northern Cyprus. Furthermore, I am among those that believe the RoC should pressure through the EU, so that the Council of Europe (CoE) calls upon Turkey to abide by the ECtHR ruling on the case of Cyprus vs. Turkey, and if not, to begin a process of kicking Turkey out of the CoE for the continuing violation of the entire Cypriot people’s human rights.

If you cannot realize and accept that Turkey’s ambition to maintain and expand its suzerainty over the whole of Cyprus (its territory, airspace and waters,) through a skewed solution of the Cyprus issue, is an entirely illegitimate one; I am sorry but there isn’t much we can really talk about!



Kifeas, denial of human rights is what caused the Turkish intervention in 1974. The GC treatment of TC's since December of 1963 is something that can't be glossed over as "an unfortunate episode". That was a GC denial of TC human rights! How is it that GC's can do so with impunity while TC's trying to defend their rights is somehow illegal?
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Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:08 am

...not with imputiny, but Christofias waits for Talat to return the regret he expressed for Greek Cypriots, in his recognition of the suffering which was caused by them toward Turkish Cypriots.

Moreso, their efforts in reconcilliation, and as Statesman, is to find these war criminals, so that they demonstrate to them the Rule of Law all Cypriots and all Humans respect, without any racial or ethnic discrimination.
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