Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

Kifeas wrote:

Observer, no matter how much and loud you may cry for it, you do not constitute a separate people in Cyprus, and there is no international body, organisation or authority that has or will ever recognise to such a very much desired privilege!

You do not constitute a separate people in Cyprus because:

(a.) You did not historically, and do not legally do now, posses any separate and exclusive territory of Cyprus, which by virtue of historical heritage or exclusive majority inhabitation, has or is ever been Turkish or TC!

(b.) Apart from the last 34 years, in which an artificial separation due to an illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing by Turkey has existed, you have always been a community living together and among a larger group of other communities, which all together form one people, the people of the island of Cyprus!

(c.) If you were to constitute a separate people, then the same should hold true for every single community that lives among a larger population, in all countries of the world. For example, the Greek, Irish, Italian, Hispanic or Afro Americans or Australians, more so the Kurds of Turkey, would also be able to claim the same thing, i.e. that they constitute separate peoples, and therefore demand an exclusive and separate self-determination right!

There is a lot of garbage your leadership in the occupied north, and that of Turkey, have been feeding you for very many years, but fortunately (or unfortunately for you,) the truth of the matter is quite different to what they spoon fed you to believe! The truth and the fact of law is what I have explained to you above!

a. The whole of Cyprus was once Turkish.
b. For many TCs, 45 years, the first 11 years of which were due to a policy of ethnic cleansing by GCs.
c. History has many examples of what was held to be a single country splitting up into separate parts due to people regarding themselves as members of different ethnic groups, communities, or whatever you want to call them. The former USSR and Yugoslavia are just the most recent examples. The Kurds are claiming the same thing now. Whether it happens or not depends on dozens of factors. The law (or what you believe to be the law) is only occasionally one of them, as the presidents of Serbia and Georgia could tell you.

You seem to have me down as a partitionist, which I am not. I prefer to think of myself as a realist, who prefers to aim for what is achievable and get it rather than a dreamer who wishes for the impossible and fails to get anything. I would certainly never say "no international body, organisation or authority that has or will ever recognise to such a very much desired privilege" because the world is a funny place and today's certainties can be swept away by so many unknownable futures.

[denizaksulu]

seconded by his dellussion.

Cyprus unification talks stalling
Disagreements over the degree of autonomy to be granted to Cyprus's two rival communities are stalling talks to reunite the island," Cypriot President Demetris Christofias said Tuesday.

"We believe there is one people made up of two communities, whereas the leader of the Turkish Cypriots is talking about two different peoples. That's a significant obstacle," Christofias said.

He explained that the Greek Cypriot community would never accept a confederation.

The UN brokered talks on reunification of Cyprus have been renewed after four-year stalemate. In 2004, Turkish Cypriots rejected the UN peace plan at a referendum.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3872/46/

"One people and two communities". I cant believe that. Perhaps something has got lost in translation.

Why you can't believe that, Deniz? This has always been the GC position! Are you only now discovering this?

I will respond after I find the original, in Turkish. It sounds out of context. I will get back to you.

[observer]

denizaksulu wrote: I will respond after I find the original, in Turkish. It sounds out of context. I will get back to you.

I think that you'll have to look for a long time since Christofias would surely have been speaking in Greek or English.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas wrote:

Observer, no matter how much and loud you may cry for it, you do not constitute a separate people in Cyprus, and there is no international body, organisation or authority that has or will ever recognise to such a very much desired privilege!

You do not constitute a separate people in Cyprus because:

(a.) You did not historically, and do not legally do now, posses any separate and exclusive territory of Cyprus, which by virtue of historical heritage or exclusive majority inhabitation, has or is ever been Turkish or TC!

(b.) Apart from the last 34 years, in which an artificial separation due to an illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing by Turkey has existed, you have always been a community living together and among a larger group of other communities, which all together form one people, the people of the island of Cyprus!

(c.) If you were to constitute a separate people, then the same should hold true for every single community that lives among a larger population, in all countries of the world. For example, the Greek, Irish, Italian, Hispanic or Afro Americans or Australians, more so the Kurds of Turkey, would also be able to claim the same thing, i.e. that they constitute separate peoples, and therefore demand an exclusive and separate self-determination right!

There is a lot of garbage your leadership in the occupied north, and that of Turkey, have been feeding you for very many years, but fortunately (or unfortunately for you,) the truth of the matter is quite different to what they spoon fed you to believe! The truth and the fact of law is what I have explained to you above!

a. The whole of Cyprus was once Turkish.
b. For many TCs, 45 years, the first 11 years of which were due to a policy of ethnic cleansing by GCs.
c. History has many examples of what was held to be a single country splitting up into separate parts due to people regarding themselves as members of different ethnic groups, communities, or whatever you want to call them. The former USSR and Yugoslavia are just the most recent examples. The Kurds are claiming the same thing now. Whether it happens or not depends on dozens of factors. The law (or what you believe to be the law) is only occasionally one of them, as the presidents of Serbia and Georgia could tell you.

You seem to have me down as a partitionist, which I am not. I prefer to think of myself as a realist, who prefers to aim for what is achievable and get it rather than a dreamer who wishes for the impossible and fails to get anything. I would certainly never say "no international body, organisation or authority that has or will ever recognise to such a very much desired privilege" because the world is a funny place and today's certainties can be swept away by so many unknownable futures.

(a.) The whole of Cyprus was once occupied by the ottomans, like it was also occupied by the British, the Venetians, the Franks, the Persians, the Arabs, the Romans, etc. However, the overwhelming majority of the indigenous inhabitants (i.e. the real owners) of this place, diachronically and throughout all the tens of centuries that elapsed since the beginning of (written) history -and even before that, have been the Greek Cypriots. Not that it would have made any difference, since anyway the owner of a place is only the indigenous people that diachronically inhabit it, the Ottoman Empire has ceased to exist (like all empires,) and you (the TCs) are not the successors of this empire! The Ottoman Empire was an illegitimate entity, like all empires that occupied other people’s lands by force; nevertheless it wasn’t a TC empire, neither a solely Turkish one!

(b.) There was no such a policy of ethnic cleansing of the TCs, by the GCs! If you had or have evidence to substantiate such a (false) accusation, you had (and still have) the opportunity to prove it in front of the ICJ (International Court of Justice) of the Hague, when the RoC has invited Turkey to proceed together in order to solve the dispute of its 1974 illegal invasion and occupation, and also the dispute over the legitimacy of the Roc after 1963. Turkey refused to pick up the invitation, which by the way is still pending!

(c.) The only way to de-Jure split Cyprus apart, is if you manage to obtain our (GC) concession! Such a concession will never be given to you, more so if it will include territory beyond your fair share as a community. Your fair share under no circumstances may exceed the 18% of Cyprus, since that was your demographic percentage. If we were to consider the fact that your property ownership ratio was slightly less than 18% -but more so the fact that your presence on this island is only 4 centuries old, while the GC one is more than 4 millennium old, in all parts Cyprus; then your fair share is even less than 18% of the island.

[halil]

Hİ ,
Red Indians where are u ?
Aren't you Indingenous ?

Answer:

No such legal , moral or political rights exists !

Cyprus was bi-communal country since ................. !

[denizaksulu]

denizaksulu wrote: I will respond after I find the original, in Turkish. It sounds out of context. I will get back to you.

I think that you'll have to look for a long time since Christofias would surely have been speaking in Greek or English.

I dont suppose Talat thinks in Greek or English, do you?

[denizaksulu]

seconded by his dellussion.

Cyprus unification talks stalling
Disagreements over the degree of autonomy to be granted to Cyprus's two rival communities are stalling talks to reunite the island," Cypriot President Demetris Christofias said Tuesday.

"We believe there is one people made up of two communities, whereas the leader of the Turkish Cypriots is talking about two different peoples. That's a significant obstacle," Christofias said.

He explained that the Greek Cypriot community would never accept a confederation.

The UN brokered talks on reunification of Cyprus have been renewed after four-year stalemate. In 2004, Turkish Cypriots rejected the UN peace plan at a referendum.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3872/46/

"One people and two communities". I cant believe that. Perhaps something has got lost in translation.

Why you can't believe that, Deniz? This has always been the GC position! Are you only now discovering this?

Kifeas, my mistake. In error, I credited those words to someone else.

Observer was very observant. Thanks for pointing it out.

[observer]

Kifeas wrote:

a.) The whole of Cyprus was once occupied by the ottomans, like it was also occupied by the British, the Venetians, the Franks, the Persians, the Arabs, the Romans, etc. However, the overwhelming majority of the indigenous inhabitants (i.e. the real owners) of this place, diachronically and throughout all the tens of centuries that elapsed since the beginning of (written) history -and even before that, have been the Greek Cypriots. Not that it would have made any difference, since anyway the owner of a place is only the indigenous people that diachronically inhabit it, the Ottoman Empire has ceased to exist (like all empires,) and you (the TCs) are not the successors of this empire! The Ottoman Empire was an illegitimate entity, like all empires that occupied other people’s lands by force; nevertheless it wasn’t a TC empire, neither a solely Turkish one!

(b.) There was no such a policy of ethnic cleansing of the TCs, by the GCs! If you had or have evidence to substantiate such a (false) accusation, you had (and still have) the opportunity to prove it in front of the ICJ (International Court of Justice) of the Hague, when the RoC has invited Turkey to proceed together in order to solve the dispute of its 1974 illegal invasion and occupation, and also the dispute over the legitimacy of the Roc after 1963. Turkey refused to pick up the invitation, which by the way is still pending!

(c.) The only way to de-Jure split Cyprus apart, is if you manage to obtain our (GC) concession! Such a concession will never be given to you, more so if it will include territory beyond your fair share as a community. Your fair share under no circumstances may exceed the 18% of Cyprus, since that was your demographic percentage. If we were to consider the fact that your property ownership ratio was slightly less than 18% -but more so the fact that your presence on this island is only 4 centuries old, while the GC one is more than 4 millennium old, in all parts Cyprus; then your fair share is even less than 18% of the island.

a. There is something in what you say, I was only pointing out your inaccuracy in saying that Cyprus had never been Turkish. I think you are wrong about the Ottoman Empire being illegitimate - you may not like something but that doesn’t make it illegitimate in the sense of it being unlawful according to some rule or regulation. And the claim that the owner of a place is only the indigenous people is an absurdity in the real world.
b. If you don’t believe that GCs attempted to ethnically cleanse TCs between 1963 and 1974 then you either don’t know the history of Cyprus or you are in self denial. It wasn’t an extended camping trip.
c. There are too many examples of countries being split up without one side or the other agreeing to make this a serious comment. Also, can you show me a single instance where the division of a country into separate parts has been made according to the proportions of its population?

[Get Real!]

If you don’t believe that GCs attempted to ethnically cleanse TCs between 1963 and 1974 then you either don’t know the history of Cyprus or you are in self denial. It wasn’t an extended camping trip.

Tough titties! You should've NEVER come here in the first place. Now kindly paddle back where you came from to avoid any further misunderstandings…

[pantheman]

@Observer

You, the Turks, give the Kurds the same rights (governance, land, identity etc) that you are demanding from the RoC and I will make sure you get yours.

Hows that?

I cannot be fairer than that. If its good for the goose ............

Thanks

Oh, and you can play with words all you like, it doesn't matter how many ways you jumble them up, Kifeas is absolutely right and you don't have a leg. Anything we the GC agree to is a bonus for you and you should be grateful. Either that or you are heading for the shit tip mate.