Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

My point remains however, that claims that these latest ;legal actions are nothing to do with the RoC administration and are the actions of indivduals alone are weakend by the passing of the is legislation by the RoC which was clearly (imo) desogned to encourage just such action by indivduals.

No doubt about it. They did a fine job!

I do not think you should do nothing. I think you (and we) should agree a political settlement to a political issue. I think the suing by indivduals of indivduals and the encourgament of such by the RoC by legislation changes does nothing to help the prospects of a political solution and much to damage them.

And should it takes another one year or two to reach a compromised deal, it will be just a long as it's needed in order to build on and/or sell every single GC property in the north, (at least those with the most value like in Kyrenia and Famagusta.)

[erolz]

And should it takes another one year or two to reach a compromised deal, it will be just a long as it's needed in order to build on and/or sell every single GC property in the north, (at least those with the most value like in Kyrenia and Famagusta.)

I agree that the sales of GC property in the north decrease the chance of a political settlement, just as the changes to laws in the RoC do. I still believe that if your objective is to secure a halt or slowing down to the sales of GC property in the north pending a comprhensive settlement then some other form of econimc growth and development avenues for the north has to be offered. This may be 'unfair' and 'unjust' in GC eyes but the fact is we need and want and will have economic growth in the north (to come close to parioty with the south). If you will not give us any other potential to achieve this than developiong and selling former GC land and property then that is what we will do. Give us another option (like allowing us to increase and develop tourism with direct flights etc) and I beleieve that some kind of agreed and verifiable limit on sale / development of GC properties is possible and achievable. Offer nothing to replace the (sorely needed and wated) economic activity that the current property boom represents for us and I believe we will show little interest in limiting it and that politicaly Talat would be unable to halt even if he desired to do so.

It's the old carrot and stick deal. Offer only stick and do not be surprised if we are unresponsive. Offer some carrot and maybe something can be done to everyones mutual benefit. The question 'you' really need to answer is what do you want more - a slowing or stopping of sales of former GC properties or a continuing of waging of a war of 'rightness' without compromise. I personaly do not think you can have both without restriction and that the ferocious persuit of the later only makes the likelyhood of solution to the former remoter. To me this is the plai reality of the situation. I do not say it is right or that you must like it or you should just accept anything but you do need to decide what is realisticaly achievable and what you really want and then work towards that. Simply wanting eveything and insiting that this is 'right' and 'just' (which it may or may not be) will not lead to a slowing of former GC property and land in the north imo.

[Kifeas]

Erol,
I think you need to understand what is the hard core of the issue. Chasing up individuals with arrest warrants and lawsuits is not the ultimate goal. Unfortunately it is the only mean available to end the construction on GC properties in the north. If individuals (foreigners) are scared to buy, then the demand will drop and consequently the illegal construction will stop. Unfortunately, from the moment the "TRNC" authorities refuse to do anything about it, there is no other way left than go against individuals.

The individual’s property rights are not a political but a legal issue. It is a human right that should be respected irrespective of political agendas. The fact that the GC side is willing to discuss it in the context of a political settlement does not automatically make it a purely political issue. It is only a compromise on behalf of the GC side to see some aspects of this issue (properties) with a political spectrum, in order to facilitate a political settlement. Unfortunately the TC side refuses to understand this reality and instead is trying to exploit this situation in order to maximise gains on the ground.

[erolz]

Erol,
Unfortunately it is the only mean available to end the construction on GC properties in the north.

I do not believe it is the only means availble or even the best means available. It might be the only means available if you insist on trying to stop it without compromising anywhere else. However to me the best means of achieveing the goal would be to try and negotiate a deal with the north and be prepared to offer something in return. Namely directly flights to Ercan in return for effective and verifyable legislation in the north to stop any futher development or sales.

If individuals (foreigners) are scared to buy, then the demand will drop and consequently the illegal construction will stop. Unfortunately, from the moment the "TRNC" authorities refuse to do anything about it, there is no other way left than go against individuals.

Yes the fear created by these actions is having and will continue to have some effect. It is not and will not stop the cponstrucion and development however - at least according to what I can see and have heard from those working in estate agents here. Also it runs the real risk that if and when these avenues finally reach apporpriate courts and fail they will increase and accelerate the problem.

The individual’s property rights are not a political but a legal issue. It is a human right that should be respected irrespective of political agendas.

I am sorry but it is a political issue and you must realise this. It is because of politics that a TC and GC have lost property. The cause of the problem is political. The effects extend beyond the political (as the effects of all political acts do almost by definition) but the cause and therefore the solution must be political.

Unfortunately the TC side refuses to understand this reality and instead is trying to exploit this situation in order to maximise gains on the ground.

We are trying to live on the ground under the conditions we are in today. There was no political 'plan' to step up exploitation of GC properties. We are just trying to grow economicaly with whatever means we have availble to us - as any country does. The property explosion in the North is not the result of political actions and legisaltive changes by the adminstration here in the north. It is entirely a consequence of the Annan Plan. If you really expect us to unilaterlay stop this economic growth without any other concessions, when we are so comparatively economicaly underdeveloped, then I think your expectations are unrealistic. You want development and sale of GC [properties in the North stopped. We what a means (any means) to grow economicaly and raise the avergae standard of living for TC. This we can negotiate on I believe. However if your permission remians 'stop this single biggest area of economic growth in the north because it is wrong and illegal and does not help a future settlement (whenever and if ever that comes) and expect nothing in return to replace this lost growth or else we will attack you with weak and highly likely to fail leagl aveneues' then I fear such a strategy is doomed to cause mothing but more problems for GC and TC alike

[Kifeas]

I do not believe it is the only means availble or even the best means available. It might be the only means available if you insist on trying to stop it without compromising anywhere else. However to me the best means of achieveing the goal would be to try and negotiate a deal with the north and be prepared to offer something in return. Namely directly flights to Ercan in return for effective and verifyable legislation in the north to stop any futher development or sales.

The intervention in someone’s property is an illegality and it is not a matter of a State having to compromising on political issues in order for this fundamental human right (according to the ECHR) to be respected. To offer something in return for the individual’s property rights to be respected is something out of the question. Direct flights to Ercan or the opening of ports in general, is also a legal problem arising from the fact that these ports are situated in the territory of Cyprus which is under occupation and therefore the only party that has the legal right to open or close them is the RoC, being the only legal governmental entity on the island. This is the only internationally legally acceptable method of declaring which ports open or closed. If the RoC allows the opening of such ports in the north is like admitting that the north is not under occupation and thus there is a legal authority in the north, which the RoC accepts as having the right to operate them, outside her (RoC) the effective jurisdiction enforcement limits. It is one step before recognition and the essence of what constitutes a Taiwanisation approach.

The RoC has already offered alternative ways to end the so-called isolation of the TC community. It is now possible to trade with the south and the rest of E.U. countries through the green line E.U. regulation. Also, people can now fly in and out of Cyprus and cross freely into the north as tourists or visitors, through the Larnaka airport. It so happens that the “TRNC” refuses to make full use of these possible alternatives because what it aims in not the end of “isolation” but the advancement on a political level against the other side. The same goes for the proposal to return the Varoshia back to its legal inhabitants, a town that is of no use to the TC side since it is uninhabited, with the exchange of opening the Famagusta harbour for direct trade under the authority of the E.U. commission or under the two (TC and GC) municipalities of Famagusta. Again the TC side refuses to accept this proposal because their ultimate target is not the end of the “isolation” but the political advancement of the “TRNC” into the status of TAIWAN model “State.” If the TC side was seriously interested to end the so-called isolation and to have direct trade, this would have already been a reality. I repeat again that the concern of the TC side is not the ending of isolation of the TC’s but the political gains against the GC side.

Yes the fear created by these actions is having and will continue to have some effect. It is not and will not stop the cponstrucion and development however - at least according to what I can see and have heard from those working in estate agents here. Also it runs the real risk that if and when these avenues finally reach apporpriate courts and fail they will increase and accelerate the problem.

Then the reason this construction will continue to occur not because of the economic benefits but because it suits the TC side politically. They hope that by building on as many GC properties now, when negotiations will be begin they will demand that these properties on which some investment was already been done should remain in the possession of those that made them, therefore reducing the number of GC’s having properties and having reason to return back into the north. However, the TC side is making blatant miscalculations on that because the GC side will never accept the same provisions as they were laid out in the A-plan5. Now, who will compensate, if anyone, those crooks that out of greed, have decided unilaterally and indiscreetly to throw cement and bricks into GC properties, anticipating that the GCs ill swallow their deeds and accept the consequences, is beyond me to know.

I am sorry but it is a political issue and you must realise this. It is because of politics that a TC and GC have lost property. The cause of the problem is political. The effects extend beyond the political (as the effects of all political acts do almost by definition) but the cause and therefore the solution must be political.

The property issue is purely an individual human rights violation and thus a legal issue. At least this is according to the Loizidou decision of the ECHR, which is the only pan European authority capable of deciding what constitutes an illegal violation of human rights. Turkey as you might be aware, argued in that court when the Loizidou case was tried that the denial of GCs property rights is part of the overall political problem of Cyprus. The court refused this argument and rendered the property issue as an illegality committed by Turkey. If you have any doubts go and read the entire case. (Council of Europe: http://www.coe.int/DefaultEN.asp)

Furthermore, in all UN Security Council resolutions about Cyprus, since 1974, there is a separate reference about the need for respect of each individuals human and property rights, irrespective and outside of the parameters of a political settlement, which as they mention should be based on the concept of a BBF.

We are trying to live on the ground under the conditions we are in today. There was no political 'plan' to step up exploitation of GC properties. We are just trying to grow economicaly with whatever means we have availble to us - as any country does.

The per capita income of the TC community has doubled (a world record) during the last two years. This is not due to the construction industry (or at least the biggest part of it,) but mainly due to the opening of the “borders.” I was giving yesterday into another thread a simple equation example. I repeat it. If we accept that 8,000 TCs work in the south, that means that as many families are earning most of their income from this employment opportunity. If every family consists, on the average, by 4 people, then we have 32,000 TCs who earn their living from the south. That is almost equivalent to the 1/3 of the indigenous TC population. It also means that for 8,000 TC families, the per-capital income has at least tripled because of that. Set aside the triple increase in tourist arrivals in the north as a result of the “border” opening, both by GCs and foreign visitors.

The property explosion in the North is not the result of political actions and legisaltive changes by the adminstration here in the north. It is entirely a consequence of the Annan Plan.

What do you mean a consequence of the A-plan?

If you really expect us to unilaterlay stop this economic growth without any other concessions, when we are so comparatively economicaly underdeveloped, then I think your expectations are unrealistic.

Stop crying! You can convince anybody but me. You are not completely economically underdeveloped as you say. This is a myth. You are perhaps only 10 years behind the south. With a solution this gab will be almost bridged in less than 5 years.

You want development and sale of GC [properties in the North stopped. We what a means (any means) to grow economicaly and raise the avergae standard of living for TC.

There are plenty of other means available.

This we can negotiate on I believe. However if your permission remians 'stop this single biggest area of economic growth in the north because it is wrong and illegal and does not help a future settlement (whenever and if ever that comes) and expect nothing in return to replace this lost growth or else we will attack you with weak and highly likely to fail leagl aveneues' then I fear such a strategy is doomed to cause mothing but more problems for GC and TC alike.

The illegal construction is not the single biggest area of economic growth in the north. This is yet another myth. How many developers are currently in the north? No more than one hundred (100) people, half of them foreigners. Where do the profits that they make go? Are they injected back into the TC economy? I have my doubts. They either go for the purchase of luxuries (new cars, e.t.c,) or they are deposited into foreign bank accounts. Perhaps these are the only people who get benefited. Jobs offered? Very little! Ninety percent (99%) of the TC construction labour force works in the south. Ninety percent (99%) of the labour force working in the illegal constructions in the north is from Turkey with £5 pound salaries per day. They sleep under the trees and in tents laid out in the fields next to the construction sides.

[erolz]

The intervention in someone’s property is an illegality and it is not a matter of a State having to compromising on political issues in order for this fundamental human right (according to the ECHR) to be respected.

If I still your car it is a leagl issue not a poltical one. If a state steals your car it is poltical issue not (solely) a legal one. You can insist that the problems relating to property in Cyprus are purely a legal issue of indivduals but I personaly think such a view is patently wrong and held not on a basis of comvictyions but more a matter of convience. The whole history of Cyprus as an independent state is one of poltical issues and political failures. That to me seems a patently obvious truism.

To offer something in return for the individual’s property rights to be respected is something out of the question.

So be it. Do not expect us to just do as you want, regardless of the effects on us because you consider these acts illegal. Maybe we should behave this way but i the real world we will not.

Direct flights to Ercan or the opening of ports in general, is also a legal problem arising from the fact that these ports are situated in the territory of Cyprus which is under occupation and therefore the only party that has the legal right to open or close them is the RoC, being the only legal governmental entity on the island. This is the only internationally legally acceptable method of declaring which ports open or closed. If the RoC allows the opening of such ports in the north is like admitting that the north is not under occupation and thus there is a legal authority in the north, which the RoC accepts as having the right to operate them, outside her (RoC) the effective jurisdiction enforcement limits. It is one step before recognition and the essence of what constitutes a Taiwanisation approach.

Well legal or not if the USA (or UK) were to decide to allow flights from USA directy to ercan I do not think you will be able to stop them. Maybe you could but I doubt it. This idea that opening the ports / airports is the same as recognising the TRNC as a legal state and not under occupation is to me just ridiculous and an excuse not a reason. It would be a realistic way to show goodwill, convince TC and the world that your real concern is not to try and use economics to bring TC to thier knees, and offer a real alternative to repalce the economic growth that would be the result of stopping development in the north of former GC property and land.

The RoC has already offered alternative ways to end the so-called isolation of the TC community. It is now possible to trade with the south and the rest of E.U. countries through the green line E.U. regulation.

We can trade through the RoC if we accept that it is the legal government of all of Cyprus which we do not. TC can tarde with the EU but only with the control and permission of GC. This is not acceptable to us.

Also, people can now fly in and out of Cyprus and cross freely into the north as tourists or visitors, through the Larnaka airport.

Again we can have a tourism industry in the North but only if it is via and controlled by GC state. Not good enough for us.

It so happens that the “TRNC” refuses to make full use of these possible alternatives because what it aims in not the end of “isolation” but the advancement on a political level against the other side. The same goes for the proposal to return the Varoshia back to its legal inhabitants, a town that is of no use to the TC side since it is uninhabited, with the exchange of opening the Famagusta harbour for direct trade under the authority of the E.U. commission or under the two (TC and GC) municipalities of Famagusta. Again the TC side refuses to accept this proposal because their ultimate target is not the end of the “isolation” but the political advancement of the “TRNC” into the status of TAIWAN model “State.” If the TC side was seriously interested to end the so-called isolation and to have direct trade, this would have already been a reality. I repeat again that the concern of the TC side is not the ending of isolation of the TC’s but the political gains against the GC side.

I disagree. We wtn and end to isolation but not if it means becomming a poltical minority in a GC controlled state. I can just as easily accuse the GC side of not wanting to end TC economic isolation unless it meets their poltical objectives of forcing the TC community to accept the illegal theft of it's rights in 63.

Then the reason this construction will continue to occur not because of the economic benefits but because it suits the TC side politically.

The TC admin has done nothing to help or promote or increase the sale of GC former properties. In reality it has done exactly the opposite. Talat has twice tried to slow this economic phenomeon and twice failed.

Now, who will compensate, if anyone, those crooks that out of greed, have decided unilaterally and indiscreetly to throw cement and bricks into GC properties, anticipating that the GCs ill swallow their deeds and accept the consequences, is beyond me to know.

A TC that lost land in the south (because of politics) and was granted land in the north in compensation and needs to raise captial from this and sells it to a non cypriot is not a theif or crook motivate by greed. He is a normal Cypriot human being that has been tossed about by politics and has a right to get on with his life.

The property issue is purely an individual human rights violation and thus a legal issue.

This 'simple' assesment belies the true reality.

At least this is according to the Loizidou decision of the ECHR, which is the only pan European authority capable of deciding what constitutes an illegal violation of human rights.

The Loizidou ruling was against Turkey as a state - yet you still try and argue that it is simply an legal issue of indivduals. Clearly this is not the case as the case would have been against the current occupants of the house and not Turkey (as a poltical entity).

Furthermore, in all UN Security Council resolutions about Cyprus, since 1974, there is a separate reference about the need for respect of each individuals human and property rights, irrespective and outside of the parameters of a political settlement, which as they mention should be based on the concept of a BBF.

So TC alone must pay the all the cost of a property settlement in Cyprus, as indivduals. If this is your idea of negotiating a settlement to the current problems?

The per capita income of the TC community has doubled (a world record) during the last two years. This is not due to the construction industry (or at least the biggest part of it,) but mainly due to the opening of the “borders.”

Where do these figures come from? More 'I can not divulge that' perhaps. Firstly show me some proof that the per capita income has double in two years. The show me the proof that this has come predominately from the opening of the borders (which was done uniltaeraly by TC btw and forced on GC by the EU) and I might be willing to consider such assertations.

I was giving yesterday into another thread a simple equation example. I repeat it. If we accept that 8,000 TCs work in the south, that means that as many families are earning most of their income from this employment opportunity. If every family consists, on the average, by 4 people, then we have 32,000 TCs who earn their living from the south. That is almost equivalent to the 1/3 of the indigenous TC population. It also means that for 8,000 TC families, the per-capital income has at least tripled because of that. Set aside the triple increase in tourist arrivals in the north as a result of the “border” opening, both by GCs and foreign visitors.

Ignoring the fact that many of this 8000 were working in the south before the opening of the borders and your figures for what % of the 'indegenous' population this represents (and if you really think all workers in the south that live in the north are 'indegenous' TC you are crazier than I thought). Ignoring all this the fact is that the workers that live in the north and work in the south are the poorest TC - those with the least economic and political power. There seems to be so much inconsistent thinking by GC about these issues. In one breath there are shouts that the property trade is worth 2 billion US dollars in one year and in the next that it is not a signifgacnt area of economic growth for TC. In one breath there are claims that TC are not really that much pooer per capita than GC and in the next claims that 1/3 of our income is down to economic migrants from north to south. In one breath it is a fact that because Talat has not stopped the property boom in the north it must be proof that he does not want to or want a settlement and in the other Talat could not politicaly close the border because x thousand of the poorest TC cross to the south to get work. It is a fact that despite all we 'stole' from GC (with every TC getting 3 times as much as they lost) out per capita income is lower than that of GC and nbot by a matter of 10 or 30% by a factor of 2 or 3 times. This is not a result of TC being incompetent vs their GC brethren or lazy or any other 'racial' reason but due to the economic warfare the GC have waged against us. It is a fact that people will seek whatever avenues they can to improve their situation for themselves and their children. Some will choose to seek employment in the south as a means of doing this (the poorest ones here - for there are no jobs for TC in the south as directors of major coporations, as CEO's or CFO just as cleaners and builders and roadsweepers and the like). Other will seek to expolit and develop property to do this.

What do you mean a consequence of the A-plan?

What I mean is clear and obvious. There has been no political changes by the TRNC authorites that have lead to this current boom (only the opposite). The boom is not a result of poltical manipulation by TRNC authorties. It is a result of the Annan plan and the change climate following the yes no vote on it. Firstly with it's stipulations on the difference between developed and undeveloped land and how this affected it potential return or not to GC this created an incentive to those with former GC land to develop it. This was a result of the Annan plan and not TRNC manipulations. However developing land does not alone a property boom make. That requires a market of buyers. Again this market was stimulated and promoted by the Annan Plan itself. Before the vote the mere potential of a solution caused speculative investment to increase in North Cyprus prioperty. After the vote the reaction of the 'resty of the world' had the same effect. You want to believe that the current property boom is something that has been plotted and promted and encouraged by the TRNC for politcal gains - but this is simply not the case. The boom is an inevitbale result of the Annan Plan and the yes no vote to it.

Stop crying! You can convince anybody but me. You are not completely economically underdeveloped as you say. This is a myth. You are perhaps only 10 years behind the south. With a solution this gab will be almost bridged in less than 5 years.

Where did I say we are completely economicaly underdeveloped. I have said that we are economicaly pooere per capita than GC. This is a simple fact. There may have been some closing of this gap since the lead up and follow on from the Annan plan vote (and may continue to be more if the EU,UK and USA live up to their promises) but none of this changes the facts. It is no myth that we are poorer per capita than GC.

There are plenty of other means available.

If we submit to GC will then sure we may be allow to prosper as your cleaners and gardeners and rubbish collectors. If that is your idea of a solution to our economic desires for growth then you will have a hard time selling it to any but the poorest (least powerful) sections of TC community. From the current boom in property we are achieving economic growth and without having to have any 'pernmission' or control from the GC run 'RoC'. If you realisticly want us to stop this growth then you have to offer some kinda of comparative alternative (ie other areas of economic growth that do not require us to be dependent on or controlled by GC). This may be unfair, it may cause you pain to do - but it is the only realistic means of convincing us to forgoe that economic development that is available to us.

The illegal construction is not the single biggest area of economic growth in the north. This is yet another myth.

This is not a myth it is an obvious reality. There has been some growth in tourism as a result of the TRNC unilateral decision to open the borders and the EU stopping the RoC from prosecuting EU citizens for entering the north and crossing to the south or for staying in 'illegal' hotels in the north or from limiting how long and where they can stay if they cross from south to north and despite the long standing and continuing efforts of the RoC to limit the tourist trade in the north. This growth however is no where near the growth that the property industry has seen in the last 3 years. There is no sector in the TRNC economy that has grown (over the last 3 years) or continues to grow that is close to the property sector, of that I have no doubt at all. Still to you it's a myth.

How many developers are currently in the north? No more than one hundred (100) people, half of them foreigners. Where do the profits that they make go? Are they injected back into the TC economy? I have my doubts. They either go for the purchase of luxuries (new cars, e.t.c,) or they are deposited into foreign bank accounts. Perhaps these are the only people who get benefited. Jobs offered? Very little! Ninety percent (99%) of the TC construction labour force works in the south. Ninety percent (99%) of the labour force working in the illegal constructions in the north is from Turkey with £5 pound salaries per day. They sleep under the trees and in tents laid out in the fields next to the construction sides.

Believe this if you must. The fact is the property trade in the north is massive (in TRNC economy terms) in both it's growth and its absolute fiscal amounts. How many TC estate agents and estate agent employees are there in the north from salesmen to secrtatiaries to IT support staff and office cleaners? How many TC cement companies and all their employees? How many builders merchants and all their employees? How many architects and their employees? How many solicitors and their employees? How many resturants and their employees to serve all the foreign buyers of these developments? How many gardeners and cleaners? How many plumbers and pool maintenance companies and their employees? How many extra tourists come as a result of foreginers buying proprty here and telling their freinds and family about north Cyprus? You can continue to try and convince me that there are no significant economic benefits of the current construction boom for TC as indivduals of for the TRNC economy in general but I am no more likely to believe you rather than the overwhealming and massive evidence that I see and hear and experinence all around me on a daily basis than I am to be convinced that the clouds are made of candy floss and that petrol comes from oranage peel.

PS what about this beer then? I would like to clear my 'debt' to you for the last one as I would not want to bee seen as trying to exploit GC generosity

[MicAtCyp]

However to me the best means
of achieveing the goal would be to try and negotiate a
deal with the north and be prepared to offer something
in return. Namely directly flights to Ercan in return
for effective and verifyable legislation in the north to
stop any futher development or sales.

What you are proposing is similar to paying ransom to a kidnapper.The illegal sales of GC properties, by people who don't own them, IS ILLEGAL and has to stop. Or there will a be a time the cost will be paid.
The allowance of direct trade and flights is totally out of question because it has to do with the core issue of illegality of the occupation.Even assuming they were allowed, then after a while the illegal sales of GC properties would start again, and new "ransom" would be asked.

It seems to me the occupation regime and the TCs cannot forsee where this unrestricted sale of land to foreigners will lead them.The same way they did not forsee how the unrestricted flow of settlers would affect them.Even supposing it was their own land, the inflation and the rise of the cost of living that will cause to the average TC will vanish all profits within 3-4 years and then what will happen when there is no more land to sell? What will happen to the TC properties in the free areas, and what will happen to the TCs after a solution? In my opinion all those who now sell GC properties will definetely lose their own properties, and the rest of them will be in so much dept after a solution that they will not know what to do....Don't expect any compensation committee to save you, thats history!

We can trade through the RoC if we accept that it is the
legal government of all of Cyprus which we do not. TC
can tarde with the EU but only with the control and
permission of GC. This is not acceptable to us.

Again we can have a tourism industry in the North but
only if it is via and controlled by GC state. Not good
enough for us.

Erol you have to understand it is the RoC who joined the EU not the occupied regime.What you are asking is for both the illegality, and legality to co-exist.It's like asking both for having the cake and eating it too. If you really want to advance economically you have to do it through RoC, there is no way out. The fact is your leadership wants both your economical advance AND it's own Political recognition. You cannot have both.So blame your leadership from denying you the one and only option available.

We want to end the isolation but not if it
means becomming a poltical minority in a GC controlled
state.

It does not mean anything! Until a solution is agreed your Political status is in limbo.Of course you are always free to take control of what part you are entitled as per 1960 contstitution of the currently "GC controlled state".Your choice, that as we all know, your leadership simply refuses.

From the current boom in
property we are achieving economic growth

Erol can you explain me how you achieve a healthy economic growth? In my opinion you just sell assets and then consume the money.It's like me selling my house and all my immovable property and then spending whatever money I got.Some day these money will be exhausted. Then what???? Ask any economist to tell you if that is a healthy economic growth.The encouragement of the construction industry is basically a tool in healthy economies to get out of recession. I guarantee you that within some years you will have so much inflation, and so much recession (after this technical inflation) that the people in the occupied will not beleive their eyes. In this respect I really don't worry. Sell everything if you like!!!

[erolz]

What you are proposing is similar to paying ransom to a kidnapper.

Maybe it is but people who want the kidnapping to end often do pay the ransom. This is why I say that GC need to decide what they want more. A realistic end or reduction of the sale of former GC property to non Cypriots or to continue their cause for justice (as they see it)

The illegal sales of GC properties, by people who don't own them, IS ILLEGAL and has to stop.

The sale of such properties is illegal under RoC law. It is legal under TRNC law. It is not illegal under any other countries laws - for example there is no law in the UK that makes such sales illegal. Maybe there should be but there is not.
I could and to a degree do claim that the removal of TC communites rights under the consitution from 64 onwards is illegal and has to stop but it does little to move us closer to a settlement imo.

Or there will a be a time the cost will be paid.

If only this was the way the world worked. If only all illegal (and bad) acts eventualy had to be paid for by the perpetrators. History clearly shows otherwise. This kind of statment is a stament of desire, not a statment of fact or 'truth'. To take the 'socratian' approach.

1. Assertion - Crimes will always eventualy be paid for.

are there any times when crimes are not paid for? answer = yes.
Are there times where the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty? answer = yes.

Conclusion is that the original assertion is not true / correct.

The allowance of direct trade and flights is totally out of question because it has to do with the core issue of illegality of the occupation.Even assuming they were allowed, then after a while the illegal sales of GC properties would start again, and new "ransom" would be asked.

If direct flights were authorised by the RoC then they could just as qucikly be unautherised by them.

It seems to me the occupation regime and the TCs cannot forsee where this unrestricted sale of land to foreigners will lead them.

None us can see the future, we only think we can. Howver the above is based on the false premis (imo) that the authorites here have created and promoted and encouraged this latest boom in the North. In my view this is not the case. They are as much 'slaves' to this phenonenom as the rest of us. It seems you beleieve that politicaly the authorites here could not close the border with mass civil unrest and disruption because x thousand of the proorest TC happen to work in the south currently, yet they could overnight decide to stop the property boom without any problems if they so chose to, even though it would affect many more TC and certainly many more rich and polticaly powerful TC interests.

Even supposing it was their own land, the inflation and the rise of the cost of living that will cause to the average TC will vanish all profits within 3-4 years and then what will happen when there is no more land to sell?

If you ignore ownership of the land (just for a moment) then what is happeneing here is no different to what has laready happened and continues to happen in the south and just about anywhere else that is 'attractive' to foreign property buyers. What happens as land (or any other resource) becomes increasingly scarce is that the price of it rises. There will always be land to sell, the only question will be are there buters willing to pay the price for it.

What will happen to the TC properties in the free areas, and what will happen to the TCs after a solution? In my opinion all those who now sell GC properties will definetely lose their own properties, and the rest of them will be in so much dept after a solution that they will not know what to do....Don't expect any compensation committee to save you, thats history!

If a TC who lost land in the south after 74 and gained land in the north sells this land to someone else then of course they loose any right to reclaim their porperty in the south. I do not think there is a TC selling land in the north that realy believes thay can do so and claim back their land in the south as well. As far as most TC are concerened they have already lost their property in the south and have moved on.

Erol you have to understand it is the RoC who joined the EU not the occupied regime.What you are asking is for both the illegality, and legality to co-exist.It's like asking both for having the cake and eating it too. If you really want to advance economically you have to do it through RoC, there is no way out. The fact is your leadership wants both your economical advance AND it's own Political recognition. You cannot have both.

I understand that it is the RoC that has joined the EU. That does not mean I think this is right or just - but thats neither here not there really. What we are asking for is what we were promised - and end to our economic isolation. In the absesne of that we will inevitably and inexorable look for any aveneues we can to grow economicaly. Your view is at odds with the rest of the world current position as I see it. They accept that it is not fair or condusctive to a solution in the future for us to be held economicaly held hostage by the south. I understand you are not happy with this appraoch but it is a direct consequence of your no vote in the referendum - no matter how unfair that might be.

So blame your leadership from denying you the one and only option available.

I prefer to blame the RoC myself, as the people who are insiting that can be only one way for us to grow economicaly (ie their way and only their way) when in fact I think there are many ways that we could be allowed to grow without being recognised formaly and without having to subjegate our growth to the all GC run RoC.

It does not mean anything! Until a solution is agreed your Political status is in limbo.

Our political status was in limbo well before the events of 74. Our poltical status being in limbo was not caused by the events of 74, but rather the events of 74 were caused by our polticial status being in limbo.

Of course you are always free to take control of what part you are entitled as per 1960 contstitution of the currently "GC controlled state".Your choice, that as we all know, your leadership simply refuses.

Well if you had allowed us to do this in 65 when we requested to return to our government posts, without the pre condition that we accept the unilateral 'propsed' ammendments to the constituion that robbed us of all of our rights as a community, then we may not be in this mess today. I am struggling to try and pin point the exact date when we were free to come and take control of what was rightfully ours under the 1960 consitituion without concession. Sometime after 74 I guess and you had lost the balance of power that allowed you to refuse such previously.

Erol can you explain me how you achieve a healthy economic growth? In my opinion you just sell assets and then consume the money.It's like me selling my house and all my immovable property and then spending whatever money I got.Some day these money will be exhausted. Then what???? Ask any economist to tell you if that is a healthy economic growth.The encouragement of the construction industry is basically a tool in healthy economies to get out of recession. I guarantee you that within some years you will have so much inflation, and so much recession (after this technical inflation) that the people in the occupied will not beleive their eyes. In this respect I really don't worry. Sell everything if you like!!!

What is happening in the north is no different to what has already occured in the south - and is one of the reason why your per capita wealth is higher there. What would I do with capital raised from the sale of property I own (in the UK or here). Cleraly you think I would go on an orgy of wanton spending and in a few years have 'spunked away' all this capital raised and be destitute. I might however decide to take this capital and invest it in a new (or existing) business venture, be they based on property development or any other sector, that if sucsessful would lead to more economic activity and growth.

[JustAnAmerican]

First off, the CIA has no interest in Papdopoulos. He is a roadblock, but a very useful roadblock. The USG needs Papdopoulos and the f**ked up Cyprus-problem, because it is a balancing thorn in Turkey’s side. Without it, Turkey’s interests could be focused elsewhere. For the USG that is not a good thing.

Talat made the comment after being embarrassed by a private USG initiative to have the two people meet. They asked Papdopoulos and Talat separately if they would consider meeting each other in the wake of DAS Kennedy’s trip last week and as a preamble to the next three visits over the next two weeks. Talat said YES, he would meet with Papdopoulos, BUT Papdopoulos said NO and called him an illegitimate leader.

[Harry]

Thats because he is a legitimite leader, and the self made flag in the TRNC. Its of another country's not Cyprus. Turkey's flag is TRNC's flag, why is that. Why can't it be unique like S.Cyprus, thats because she has to wait for mommy to speak first. Catch my drift, just like Talat. He wouldn't know what to say first without touching base with Turkey. So suck up the truth.