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Talat! What a waste of time!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Cem » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:14 pm

[quote="Kikapu

Why would Turkey would leave the island, if there were a legal partition Andros.?? Surely, the reverse would happen, since their presence would be legitimized by the TC's in the north by not being able to say NO to Turkey.

[/quote]


If one of the conditions of partition- if supported by the E.U- were Turkey's leaving the island following a mutual agreement of both TCs and GCs, under the penalty of drawing severe economic sanctions from E.U in case of a breach, then she would leave. Remains the issue of TCs saying NO to Turkey which is the core of the problem. This will be up to EU' s capability of forcing/negotiating with Turkey to take her hands off the north.

If the north was also in the EU, then Turkey would pull the strings in the EU trough the north to bring the EU to a standstill, unless Turkey is admitted into the EU
.

The commitment of the EU to accept the north should be conditional of Turkey's leaving the island and relinquishing her guarantorship power to the EU. Once it is accepted, the EU will see to that any referandum about partition or not should be done under her supervision.

Then once Turkey is in the EU, then they can now legally flood into the south, something which you have shown some concerns in your above post. In order for the latter not becoming a reality, the north cannot be in the EU as a seperate state, but only under a True Federation in the new RoC. I do not believe, the EU will ever permit the "trnc" to become a sovereign state in the EU, because rather than admitting 100,000 True TC's into the Union, that number will become 80 million Fake TC's by giving duel citizenship's to all the Turks in Turkey, and you are back to square one again, as far as having your fears of the Turks flooding the south.. Be careful what you ask for when you ask for legal partition, because you may not like the results that may come with it, because the only way the north will agree to a legal partition, even if it meant giving substantial land back, that they should be allowed to become a full EU member.


Again, the EU will not allow the north into the EU for the reasons I have given above, therefore the TC's will not ask for a legal partition, because there will be absolute no benefit for them at all, to do so. The TC's can serve Turkey much better by being on the "inside" of the RoC and not outside. Why do think the Annan Plan is always brought up by the Talat to be accepted as a means for a "solution" and not the True Federation. True Federation will only server the purpose for the TC's but not for Turkey, hence the reason why it is being rejected by puppet Talat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting True Federation for the TC's to live in a Democratic country, but this will not serve the interest of Turkey, because it will leave them outside the EU's inner circles without any influence. An EU member "trnc" will be the Trojan Horse" for Turkey in the EU. Somehow, that element of surprised has already been done and that the EU will not fall for it by allowing 100,000 harmless TC's into the Union.!! The concerns will be, what will come after the "trnc" is in the EU
[/quote]

Very good analysis, Kikapu. As I said in my other post, partition is not my first choice, but if it comes to that point, the issue should be to minimize Turkey's involvement following and during partition.

I wonder, whether the north could come up with a third -party guarantor that would act on its behalf ? Such as.........??????? Suspense :?:
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:30 pm

Cem wrote:
Judging from this post of yours, I might believe even myself that you and I have so much in common, that we might end up becoming one virtual person as our Super-Scientist claimed.

Only I differ from you with respect to Turkey's EU membership, for she will never be in EU, take it from someone who knows both Turkey (because I am half turkish and having lived in EU close to 6 years).

So your concerns about making Cyprus predominantly Turkish controlled by bringing in EU citizen turks after her admission is groundless.

The partition idea was not what I had defended at the beginning, however, if it comes to crunch, this may not be a bad option provided that:

1) Turkey steps out Cyprus both as guarantor and a military power.

2) Most of settlers (particularly those who came here last 10 years and those who have no particular qualification, educational level, cultural ties etc) should go back.

3) If there is vacuum in the north due to their departure, it should be filled by bringing over TC diaspora by making the living conditions attractive for them.

4) Armenians and Maronite Cypriots should be able to resettle in the north for start and a pre-agreed but restricted number of GCs as well.

5) The ultimate aim of the government in the north should be to join EU in 10 years and pending this period GCs having their property in the north can be compensated or rent their properties.

So who will be the guarantor for the north ? EU itself however full EU acquis communautaire become applicable at the end of 10 years, siga siga as you say in greek.

Once this state in the north becomes part of EU itself, the issue will automatically solved even without two states reunifying.

Thus, Turkey's role as guarantor ends and replaced by EU at the end of specific period. Afterwards, everyone will be able to settle wherever they like.


Cem, in listing your "requirements" for partition, you probably forgot to mention which 50% of the territory currently occupied by Turkey, will be returned to the RoC in order to possibly get a GC approval to your scenario. Can we see your map with the 18% territory of Cyprus that you intent to keep for the partitioned TC state?
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Postby Cem » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:48 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Cem wrote:
Judging from this post of yours, I might believe even myself that you and I have so much in common, that we might end up becoming one virtual person as our Super-Scientist claimed.

Only I differ from you with respect to Turkey's EU membership, for she will never be in EU, take it from someone who knows both Turkey (because I am half turkish and having lived in EU close to 6 years).

So your concerns about making Cyprus predominantly Turkish controlled by bringing in EU citizen turks after her admission is groundless.

The partition idea was not what I had defended at the beginning, however, if it comes to crunch, this may not be a bad option provided that:

1) Turkey steps out Cyprus both as guarantor and a military power.

2) Most of settlers (particularly those who came here last 10 years and those who have no particular qualification, educational level, cultural ties etc) should go back.

3) If there is vacuum in the north due to their departure, it should be filled by bringing over TC diaspora by making the living conditions attractive for them.

4) Armenians and Maronite Cypriots should be able to resettle in the north for start and a pre-agreed but restricted number of GCs as well.

5) The ultimate aim of the government in the north should be to join EU in 10 years and pending this period GCs having their property in the north can be compensated or rent their properties.

So who will be the guarantor for the north ? EU itself however full EU acquis communautaire become applicable at the end of 10 years, siga siga as you say in greek.

Once this state in the north becomes part of EU itself, the issue will automatically solved even without two states reunifying.

Thus, Turkey's role as guarantor ends and replaced by EU at the end of specific period. Afterwards, everyone will be able to settle wherever they like.


Cem, in listing your "requirements" for partition, you probably forgot to mention which 50% of the territory currently occupied by Turkey, will be returned to the RoC in order to possibly get a GC approval to your scenario. Can we see your map with the 18% territory of Cyprus that you intent to keep for the partitioned TC state?


No, You can't, for it is up to Xtofias and Talat to decide on percentages and areas, not me.

I haven't said anything about which areas would be left under RoC jurisdiction and which, under the state in the north either.

BTW, I did not say that partition is my best choice either. Rather, there might be a sort of canton in the north instead, with a commitment to join EU at the end of say 10 years. Pending that period a special derogatory status would be given to that area that would be exclusively TC- controlled.

There might be a 1 time referandum at the of 10 th year to be exclusively voted by TCs concerning the extension of that derogation status for an additional 10 years. However, at the end of this additional 10 th year the derogation status would be completely lifted (no further referandum) and the area joins the RoC totally. The size of that area (to be determined by GC s and TCs) will be much reduced than the actual one, of course.

Needless to say, from the moment derogation starts Turkey should be pulling out as per Kikapu plan.
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:07 pm

Cem wrote: ....The size of that area (to be determined by GC s and TCs) will be much reduced than the actual one, of course.


Well, at least you acknowledge that there should be some serious territorial arrangement in favor of the RoC, for partition to have a chance to become a reality. I say this because I know very many TCs who tend to be all for partition, only because they were made to live with the diluted ambition that in this way they will be able to run away with all or most of the area that Turkey currently occupies!
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Postby zan » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:09 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Cem wrote: ....The size of that area (to be determined by GC s and TCs) will be much reduced than the actual one, of course.


Well, at least you acknowledge that there should be some serious territorial arrangement in favor of the RoC, for partition to have a chance to become a reality. I say this because I know very many TCs who tend to be all for partition, only because they were made to live with the diluted ambition that in this way they will be able to run away with all or most of the area that Turkey currently occupies!


They might..Just might give in to 7% but I doubt it!!!
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Postby Nikitas » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:51 am

Mitsotakis, when he was prime minister of Greece, in talks he had with his Turkish counterpart, Mesut Yilmaz, made it clear that in the case of outright partition Greece will have demands regarding territory. And the chances of getting her way are much enhanced in such a "share out" since the whole matter would be simplified, reduced to sports terms that our "western allies" are familiar with. and even people like Bush can understand and deal with.

I agree with Bananiot that partition is a preamble to assimilation of each community by the corresponding mainland. Divided there would be no reason to exist independently, and again, our allies would push for stability which means eradicating the unpredictable and non aligned, ie two independent republics on Cyprus. They would be too volatile and must go.
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Postby Big Al » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:39 am

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Postby Big Al » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:41 am

Zan, beyendinmi????
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Postby Big Al » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:45 am

bir tane daha senin icin

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Postby zan » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:48 am

Looks good Big Al but very clear...Can you post them in larger format???
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