Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

Sorry to arrive after a short period away with a Negative Subject, but I am obviously disappointed with both Cypriot leaders.

TC leader Mehmet Ali Talat and President Christofias appear to be two Socialist cowboys who have both obviously miscalculated their fortune. In fact, I would say that Talat has clearly played us for a complete fool - how disappointing that we are now faced with a very serious dilemma!

As I've said in the past, Talat has absolutely No real negotiating power, can not negotiate a true unification of the ROC with the North without mentioning either Two States, Power Sharing and the dissolution of the ROC, or, now his favourite word: Guarantorship! What's bound to happen is my real question behind this posting?

Well, this is what I think will exactly happen:
TC leader and President Christofias will talks some more, and then a little more with no practical results. Then suddenly, President Christofias will realise why our former President completely, and categorically refused to sit in front of the TC leader under a UN negotiating framework based on two states under one federal deal - because it would lead to a FORCED new watered-down version of the disastrous Annan plan. Giving 11-18% of the island's minority people "Equal" rights as the vast majority - who great democracy is!!!

Anyway, getting back to my prediction, after this has been realised by President Christofias, perhaps be noticing the huge smiles on the Turkish soldiers manning the Cease-Fire line, we will be presented with a situation of two lesser evils to choose from.

LESSER EVIL ONE
1) We will either have to accept a referendum on this watered-down Annan Plan of two Constituent states again under a federal structure and most probably reject it and then witness the so-called legitimisation of the "TRNC".

or

LESSER EVIL TWO
2) President Christofias puts on his thinking hat well before hand and slams his fist on the table and says "enough is enough" of this "Federal" rubbish and time to talk real politics. “Time time to talk trade, prepare for a Give and Take process and to bring closure to the Cyprus issue once and for all”. I am hoping that Christofias will raise his hand and finish what President Papadopoulos originally started. That he will cement the Republic of Cyprus' future and eliminate any such "Federation" threats by accepting the unthinkable and un-do-able. He will hit Turkey with a Catch-22 and demand the following:

SEEING THAT TURKEY REALLY WANTS A TWO STATE SOLUTION, LET’S GIVE HER ONE:
i) The TRNC be accepted as an internationally recognised Turkish Cypriot State if it hands back all areas that reduce it to 18% maximum.

ii) That Turkey will only have rights in all areas of the NEW "TRNC" (or what ever they decide to call it) only, and all historical international agreements on the ROC are legally removed under the command of the international community, UN, EU and others bodies.

ii) That the Republic of Cyprus is internationally known as a Greek Cypriot identity only, and which others will be bound by Greek Cypriot citizenship as the ROC under EU law.

As part of the above agreement, the so-called "TRNC" of today will not be the same as the "TRNC" of tomorrow, and that the "TRNC" of tomorrow MUST have a "Turkish Cypriot" structure, will be demilitarised and must be considered by the EU as an EU Member Candidate SPERATE from TURKEY.

Therefore, what I am suggesting is that I believe that President Christofias will either mess-up badly and be forced to accept the "TRNC" of today after a failed unification process, OR he will (or MUST) slam his fist and force an inevitable two state deal under his TERMS and CONDITIONS.

You may all smirk at this idea – but I am certain that President Christofias accepts that the Memet Ali Talat of 1995 is completely brainwashed, and has changed to the Talat “Pasha” of today!

I accept that unification as the ROC of the entire island is a doomed reality into recognition of the Status quo if talks continue too long, or fail for that matter.

which of the above is the lesser evil?

Andros, one thing you forget to mention is that the GC has no bargaining power to demand to TC side reduce its area to 18%, if the GC's did have any power to demand this dont you think they would have exerted that power by now, at he very least if the GC had any power they would have been able to take control of famagusta, dont you think?????
Fact is the GC bargainin power is far less than the TC side. If worst comes to worst and nothing is acheived through negotiation, the TC's can hold a referendum and join the republic of Turkey and the GC's are powerless to stop this. When all is done and dusted with this credit crisis, the EU will be very unattractive to Turkey, therefore the only carrot for Turkey will become a stone.

18% is a bullshit number and has no relevance in how much land a people need of have in Cyprus.

You're right, The tc population shouldn't need more than 11% with their numbers now.

[zan]

[Andros, one thing you forget to mention is that the GC has no bargaining power to demand to TC side reduce its area to 18%, if the GC's did have any power to demand this dont you think they would have exerted that power by now, at he very least if the GC had any power they would have been able to take control of famagusta, dont you think?????
Fact is the GC bargainin power is far less than the TC side. If worst comes to worst and nothing is acheived through negotiation, the TC's can hold a referendum and join the republic of Turkey and the GC's are powerless to stop this. When all is done and dusted with this credit crisis, the EU will be very unattractive to Turkey, therefore the only carrot for Turkey will become a stone.

It is not GC bargaining power that is lacking. It is the will. We will not allow our country to be torn into pieces to satisfy the Turks even if it is what you may consider such a small piece as "18%".

You tore the country in two back in 1964......

[zan]

Sorry to arrive after a short period away with a Negative Subject, but I am obviously disappointed with both Cypriot leaders.

TC leader Mehmet Ali Talat and President Christofias appear to be two Socialist cowboys who have both obviously miscalculated their fortune. In fact, I would say that Talat has clearly played us for a complete fool - how disappointing that we are now faced with a very serious dilemma!

As I've said in the past, Talat has absolutely No real negotiating power, can not negotiate a true unification of the ROC with the North without mentioning either Two States, Power Sharing and the dissolution of the ROC, or, now his favourite word: Guarantorship! What's bound to happen is my real question behind this posting?

Well, this is what I think will exactly happen:
TC leader and President Christofias will talks some more, and then a little more with no practical results. Then suddenly, President Christofias will realise why our former President completely, and categorically refused to sit in front of the TC leader under a UN negotiating framework based on two states under one federal deal - because it would lead to a FORCED new watered-down version of the disastrous Annan plan. Giving 11-18% of the island's minority people "Equal" rights as the vast majority - who great democracy is!!!

Anyway, getting back to my prediction, after this has been realised by President Christofias, perhaps be noticing the huge smiles on the Turkish soldiers manning the Cease-Fire line, we will be presented with a situation of two lesser evils to choose from.

LESSER EVIL ONE
1) We will either have to accept a referendum on this watered-down Annan Plan of two Constituent states again under a federal structure and most probably reject it and then witness the so-called legitimisation of the "TRNC".

or

LESSER EVIL TWO
2) President Christofias puts on his thinking hat well before hand and slams his fist on the table and says "enough is enough" of this "Federal" rubbish and time to talk real politics. “Time time to talk trade, prepare for a Give and Take process and to bring closure to the Cyprus issue once and for all”. I am hoping that Christofias will raise his hand and finish what President Papadopoulos originally started. That he will cement the Republic of Cyprus' future and eliminate any such "Federation" threats by accepting the unthinkable and un-do-able. He will hit Turkey with a Catch-22 and demand the following:

SEEING THAT TURKEY REALLY WANTS A TWO STATE SOLUTION, LET’S GIVE HER ONE:
i) The TRNC be accepted as an internationally recognised Turkish Cypriot State if it hands back all areas that reduce it to 18% maximum.

ii) That Turkey will only have rights in all areas of the NEW "TRNC" (or what ever they decide to call it) only, and all historical international agreements on the ROC are legally removed under the command of the international community, UN, EU and others bodies.

ii) That the Republic of Cyprus is internationally known as a Greek Cypriot identity only, and which others will be bound by Greek Cypriot citizenship as the ROC under EU law.

As part of the above agreement, the so-called "TRNC" of today will not be the same as the "TRNC" of tomorrow, and that the "TRNC" of tomorrow MUST have a "Turkish Cypriot" structure, will be demilitarised and must be considered by the EU as an EU Member Candidate SPERATE from TURKEY.

Therefore, what I am suggesting is that I believe that President Christofias will either mess-up badly and be forced to accept the "TRNC" of today after a failed unification process, OR he will (or MUST) slam his fist and force an inevitable two state deal under his TERMS and CONDITIONS.

You may all smirk at this idea – but I am certain that President Christofias accepts that the Memet Ali Talat of 1995 is completely brainwashed, and has changed to the Talat “Pasha” of today!

I accept that unification as the ROC of the entire island is a doomed reality into recognition of the Status quo if talks continue too long, or fail for that matter.

which of the above is the lesser evil?

Andros, one thing you forget to mention is that the GC has no bargaining power to demand to TC side reduce its area to 18%, if the GC's did have any power to demand this dont you think they would have exerted that power by now, at he very least if the GC had any power they would have been able to take control of famagusta, dont you think?????
Fact is the GC bargainin power is far less than the TC side. If worst comes to worst and nothing is acheived through negotiation, the TC's can hold a referendum and join the republic of Turkey and the GC's are powerless to stop this. When all is done and dusted with this credit crisis, the EU will be very unattractive to Turkey, therefore the only carrot for Turkey will become a stone.

18% is a bullshit number and has no relevance in how much land a people need of have in Cyprus.

You're right, The tc population shouldn't need more than 11% with their numbers now.

And you don't need 63% by the look of it mate.......How about reducing your share and let other "minorities" have some???

[DT.]

Sorry to arrive after a short period away with a Negative Subject, but I am obviously disappointed with both Cypriot leaders.

TC leader Mehmet Ali Talat and President Christofias appear to be two Socialist cowboys who have both obviously miscalculated their fortune. In fact, I would say that Talat has clearly played us for a complete fool - how disappointing that we are now faced with a very serious dilemma!

As I've said in the past, Talat has absolutely No real negotiating power, can not negotiate a true unification of the ROC with the North without mentioning either Two States, Power Sharing and the dissolution of the ROC, or, now his favourite word: Guarantorship! What's bound to happen is my real question behind this posting?

Well, this is what I think will exactly happen:
TC leader and President Christofias will talks some more, and then a little more with no practical results. Then suddenly, President Christofias will realise why our former President completely, and categorically refused to sit in front of the TC leader under a UN negotiating framework based on two states under one federal deal - because it would lead to a FORCED new watered-down version of the disastrous Annan plan. Giving 11-18% of the island's minority people "Equal" rights as the vast majority - who great democracy is!!!

Anyway, getting back to my prediction, after this has been realised by President Christofias, perhaps be noticing the huge smiles on the Turkish soldiers manning the Cease-Fire line, we will be presented with a situation of two lesser evils to choose from.

LESSER EVIL ONE
1) We will either have to accept a referendum on this watered-down Annan Plan of two Constituent states again under a federal structure and most probably reject it and then witness the so-called legitimisation of the "TRNC".

or

LESSER EVIL TWO
2) President Christofias puts on his thinking hat well before hand and slams his fist on the table and says "enough is enough" of this "Federal" rubbish and time to talk real politics. “Time time to talk trade, prepare for a Give and Take process and to bring closure to the Cyprus issue once and for all”. I am hoping that Christofias will raise his hand and finish what President Papadopoulos originally started. That he will cement the Republic of Cyprus' future and eliminate any such "Federation" threats by accepting the unthinkable and un-do-able. He will hit Turkey with a Catch-22 and demand the following:

SEEING THAT TURKEY REALLY WANTS A TWO STATE SOLUTION, LET’S GIVE HER ONE:
i) The TRNC be accepted as an internationally recognised Turkish Cypriot State if it hands back all areas that reduce it to 18% maximum.

ii) That Turkey will only have rights in all areas of the NEW "TRNC" (or what ever they decide to call it) only, and all historical international agreements on the ROC are legally removed under the command of the international community, UN, EU and others bodies.

ii) That the Republic of Cyprus is internationally known as a Greek Cypriot identity only, and which others will be bound by Greek Cypriot citizenship as the ROC under EU law.

As part of the above agreement, the so-called "TRNC" of today will not be the same as the "TRNC" of tomorrow, and that the "TRNC" of tomorrow MUST have a "Turkish Cypriot" structure, will be demilitarised and must be considered by the EU as an EU Member Candidate SPERATE from TURKEY.

Therefore, what I am suggesting is that I believe that President Christofias will either mess-up badly and be forced to accept the "TRNC" of today after a failed unification process, OR he will (or MUST) slam his fist and force an inevitable two state deal under his TERMS and CONDITIONS.

You may all smirk at this idea – but I am certain that President Christofias accepts that the Memet Ali Talat of 1995 is completely brainwashed, and has changed to the Talat “Pasha” of today!

I accept that unification as the ROC of the entire island is a doomed reality into recognition of the Status quo if talks continue too long, or fail for that matter.

which of the above is the lesser evil?

Andros, one thing you forget to mention is that the GC has no bargaining power to demand to TC side reduce its area to 18%, if the GC's did have any power to demand this dont you think they would have exerted that power by now, at he very least if the GC had any power they would have been able to take control of famagusta, dont you think?????
Fact is the GC bargainin power is far less than the TC side. If worst comes to worst and nothing is acheived through negotiation, the TC's can hold a referendum and join the republic of Turkey and the GC's are powerless to stop this. When all is done and dusted with this credit crisis, the EU will be very unattractive to Turkey, therefore the only carrot for Turkey will become a stone.

18% is a bullshit number and has no relevance in how much land a people need of have in Cyprus.

You're right, The tc population shouldn't need more than 11% with their numbers now.

And you don't need 63% by the look of it mate.......How about reducing your share and let other "minorities" have some???

Everyone belongs to the land and the land belongs to all. If we had it our way it would be one free country for all matey.

[zan]

Sorry to arrive after a short period away with a Negative Subject, but I am obviously disappointed with both Cypriot leaders.

TC leader Mehmet Ali Talat and President Christofias appear to be two Socialist cowboys who have both obviously miscalculated their fortune. In fact, I would say that Talat has clearly played us for a complete fool - how disappointing that we are now faced with a very serious dilemma!

As I've said in the past, Talat has absolutely No real negotiating power, can not negotiate a true unification of the ROC with the North without mentioning either Two States, Power Sharing and the dissolution of the ROC, or, now his favourite word: Guarantorship! What's bound to happen is my real question behind this posting?

Well, this is what I think will exactly happen:
TC leader and President Christofias will talks some more, and then a little more with no practical results. Then suddenly, President Christofias will realise why our former President completely, and categorically refused to sit in front of the TC leader under a UN negotiating framework based on two states under one federal deal - because it would lead to a FORCED new watered-down version of the disastrous Annan plan. Giving 11-18% of the island's minority people "Equal" rights as the vast majority - who great democracy is!!!

Anyway, getting back to my prediction, after this has been realised by President Christofias, perhaps be noticing the huge smiles on the Turkish soldiers manning the Cease-Fire line, we will be presented with a situation of two lesser evils to choose from.

LESSER EVIL ONE
1) We will either have to accept a referendum on this watered-down Annan Plan of two Constituent states again under a federal structure and most probably reject it and then witness the so-called legitimisation of the "TRNC".

or

LESSER EVIL TWO
2) President Christofias puts on his thinking hat well before hand and slams his fist on the table and says "enough is enough" of this "Federal" rubbish and time to talk real politics. “Time time to talk trade, prepare for a Give and Take process and to bring closure to the Cyprus issue once and for all”. I am hoping that Christofias will raise his hand and finish what President Papadopoulos originally started. That he will cement the Republic of Cyprus' future and eliminate any such "Federation" threats by accepting the unthinkable and un-do-able. He will hit Turkey with a Catch-22 and demand the following:

SEEING THAT TURKEY REALLY WANTS A TWO STATE SOLUTION, LET’S GIVE HER ONE:
i) The TRNC be accepted as an internationally recognised Turkish Cypriot State if it hands back all areas that reduce it to 18% maximum.

ii) That Turkey will only have rights in all areas of the NEW "TRNC" (or what ever they decide to call it) only, and all historical international agreements on the ROC are legally removed under the command of the international community, UN, EU and others bodies.

ii) That the Republic of Cyprus is internationally known as a Greek Cypriot identity only, and which others will be bound by Greek Cypriot citizenship as the ROC under EU law.

As part of the above agreement, the so-called "TRNC" of today will not be the same as the "TRNC" of tomorrow, and that the "TRNC" of tomorrow MUST have a "Turkish Cypriot" structure, will be demilitarised and must be considered by the EU as an EU Member Candidate SPERATE from TURKEY.

Therefore, what I am suggesting is that I believe that President Christofias will either mess-up badly and be forced to accept the "TRNC" of today after a failed unification process, OR he will (or MUST) slam his fist and force an inevitable two state deal under his TERMS and CONDITIONS.

You may all smirk at this idea – but I am certain that President Christofias accepts that the Memet Ali Talat of 1995 is completely brainwashed, and has changed to the Talat “Pasha” of today!

I accept that unification as the ROC of the entire island is a doomed reality into recognition of the Status quo if talks continue too long, or fail for that matter.

which of the above is the lesser evil?

Andros, one thing you forget to mention is that the GC has no bargaining power to demand to TC side reduce its area to 18%, if the GC's did have any power to demand this dont you think they would have exerted that power by now, at he very least if the GC had any power they would have been able to take control of famagusta, dont you think?????
Fact is the GC bargainin power is far less than the TC side. If worst comes to worst and nothing is acheived through negotiation, the TC's can hold a referendum and join the republic of Turkey and the GC's are powerless to stop this. When all is done and dusted with this credit crisis, the EU will be very unattractive to Turkey, therefore the only carrot for Turkey will become a stone.

18% is a bullshit number and has no relevance in how much land a people need of have in Cyprus.

You're right, The tc population shouldn't need more than 11% with their numbers now.

And you don't need 63% by the look of it mate.......How about reducing your share and let other "minorities" have some???

Everyone belongs to the land and the land belongs to all. If we had it our way it would be one free country for all matey.

Wasn't that makarios' words......Free contry for the Greeks and the TC would be free to leave if they survived the slaughter!!!!

[DT.]

You're a dinsoaur Zan. You have no place in modern Cyprus. Halil will tell you.

[zan]

You're a dinsoaur Zan. You have no place in modern Cyprus. Halil will tell you.

I am a man of the future DT....The future of my people on Cyprus.....A new Cyprus in which a fair solution will be found and not keep harping on about democracy the ancient Greek way...It is you that is scared of the new and the true.....You that cannot see further than the end of your nose...Oer at least expect us to turn a blind eye.....Sort of the dinosaur still in its shell....

[DT.]

You're a dinsoaur Zan. You have no place in modern Cyprus. Halil will tell you.

I am a man of the future DT....The future of my people on Cyprus.....A new Cyprus in which a fair solution will be found and not keep harping on about democracy the ancient Greek way...It is you that is scared of the new and the true.....You that cannot see further than the end of your nose...Oer at least expect us to turn a blind eye.....Sort of the dinosaur still in its shell....

Thats right Zan, you're the future of Cyprus

Driven out of Cyprus by EOKA and Makarios

[zan]

You're a dinsoaur Zan. You have no place in modern Cyprus. Halil will tell you.

I am a man of the future DT....The future of my people on Cyprus.....A new Cyprus in which a fair solution will be found and not keep harping on about democracy the ancient Greek way...It is you that is scared of the new and the true.....You that cannot see further than the end of your nose...Oer at least expect us to turn a blind eye.....Sort of the dinosaur still in its shell....

Thats right Zan, you're the future of Cyprus

Driven out of Cyprus by EOKA and Makarios

You can't go forward without looking at what happened in the past......It would be suicide. I would have thought that would be the essence of your trade....You seem to be happy quoting 1974 and claiming Cyprus for yourself but when 1964 is mentioned then you say we must forget he past....I am the past.....Present....and Future!!!!!

[miltiades]

My friend Halil on another thread reminded us that both he and I share many principles concerning the Cyprus issue , the principles that we both cherish that all Cypriots have an equal right to this island, that all Cypriots have the right to a peaceful and fear free future on this island of ours. We differ on the one issue that might derail current negotiations taking place and that is the fundamental issue of "guarantors"
Halil believes that Turkey is a suitable guarantor and that the majority of T/Cs wish to see Turkey as a guarantor . I do not and I have stated many times in the past that for any agreement to have a chance of being accepted by our people on both sides , the majority from both sides has to endorse such an agreement when presented.
Giving Turkey , a nation that 80% of Cypriots see as an occupying power , a ruthless invader and an abuser of human rights , will never be endorsed by the overwhelming majority of Cypriots. There are suitable and much more "Cyprus friendly" powers not least the UN and Europe who would be impartial and widely accepted by the vast majority of Cypriots. Turkey is the negotiating power here NOT its instrument Talat. A solution that has as its foundation the acceptance of the occupying power as a guarantor will not succeed . We need a solution that is guaranteed by nations whose democratic and human right credentials are recognised internationally , contrary to Turkeys which fail miserably not least her treatment of the Kurdish minority.
A solution must be negotiated but both sides must address each others concerns .
Why on earth dont we re adopt the Zurich agreements , second time round with different perceptives from both sides .