Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

I did not vote.

Full stop.

[halil]

Miltiades

Let me put it this way for you, I am an average person who places himself in the middle in terms of placement in this vast political spectrum. I neither love Turkey to death in a way that I forget about Cyprus but neither do I tag along the "We are all Cypriot lets just kiss and make up and forget everything, it was all the fault of the imperial nations" notion. I love Cyprus at least as much as you do and I respect the views of each GC on this forum and I find a bit of truth in just about every post. I love Cyprus to death and would neither want to see it a part of Turkey or Greece to any extent whatsoever. I've been in Melbourne for 6 weeks now and sometimes even cry a bit when thinking of Cyprus in bed before going to sleep and you call me a foreigner , for what? Being a bit cautious? What I see of being asked from TC's is like " Pulling your pants down at a gay night club and hoping that nothing happens!` . There is a lack of trust between GC's and TC's because we are still not sure of either sides intentions.

Yes Umit , i agree with u what u are saying at above ..... Finding excuses does not help at all .... blaming Turkey or Greece also does not help at all .

As you are saying ''There is a lack of trust between GC's and TC's because we are still not sure of either sides intentions''

who were the EOKA and TMT men ? OUR FATHERS ,UNCLES .BROTHERS and SİSTERS ................ open your eyes ...............

[zan]

No I do not!

You naughty boy , I have still got mine !!
I offered you my hand in friendship a few times , you rejected it .
Let me now give you my vote which will make us level at 12 each , call an end to the poll shake hands and be mates . After all if you were to lose I would only have Oracle and GR to fight with , not fair on them is it !!
Mate I have a sense of humour , have you , let me vote for you and call it a draw !!

Oh the comparisons that can be made to history repeating it self

I have just voted and it is 12 all......You make the final decision Miltiades...Do you want this foreigner out or not.....His fate is in your hands....

[miltiades]

Miltiades

Let me put it this way for you, I am an average person who places himself in the middle in terms of placement in this vast political spectrum. I neither love Turkey to death in a way that I forget about Cyprus but neither do I tag along the "We are all Cypriot lets just kiss and make up and forget everything, it was all the fault of the imperial nations" notion. I love Cyprus at least as much as you do and I respect the views of each GC on this forum and I find a bit of truth in just about every post. I love Cyprus to death and would neither want to see it a part of Turkey or Greece to any extent whatsoever. I've been in Melbourne for 6 weeks now and sometimes even cry a bit when thinking of Cyprus in bed before going to sleep and you call me a foreigner , for what? Being a bit cautious? What I see of being asked from TC's is like " Pulling your pants down at a gay night club and hoping that nothing happens!` . There is a lack of trust between GC's and TC's because we are still not sure of either sides intentions.

Yes Umit , i agree with u what u are saying at above ..... Finding excuses does not help at all .... blaming Turkey or Greece also does not help at all .

As you are saying ''There is a lack of trust between GC's and TC's because we are still not sure of either sides intentions''

who were the EOKA and TMT men ? OUR FATHERS ,UNCLES .BROTHERS and SİSTERS ................ open your eyes ...............

Therefore we have so much in common , our love for our own nation , Cyprus . I do not mistrust T/Cs I think I have made that clear many times.

[zan]

No I do not!

You naughty boy , I have still got mine !!
I offered you my hand in friendship a few times , you rejected it .
Let me now give you my vote which will make us level at 12 each , call an end to the poll shake hands and be mates . After all if you were to lose I would only have Oracle and GR to fight with , not fair on them is it !!
Mate I have a sense of humour , have you , let me vote for you and call it a draw !!

Oh the comparisons that can be made to history repeating it self

I have just voted and it is 12 all......You make the final decision Miltiades...Do you want this foreigner out or not.....His fate is in your hands....

[Paphitis]

For instance and here I also note your oft-posted commitment to the New Europe, how do you square a BBF solution to the laws of the same EU regarding freedom of movement and right to enjoy one's property?

BBF is just a fancy way of disguising partition. It is by it's very nature in contravention to basic EU laws and principles. It defines 2 self governing federated states, segregated on racial lines to maintain a numerical superiority of a particular community within it's so called zone. This can only be achieved by impeding freedom of movement, the right of certain individuals returning to their properties, and by limiting one communities democratic rights and hence human rights within that zone.

My position on this is that I support the implementation of the EU Acquis over all of Cyprus. All persons must have freedom of movement, and to enjoy basic democratic rights no matter where they reside. All refugees must be allowed the opportunity to return to their dispossessed homes. Any solution to Cyprus must conform to basic EU law. There can be no exception for Cyprus.

On other matters of substance I would ask where you stand on matters of security and territorial adjustments. What level of Turkish Army (if any at all of course) should remain post-solution and whether any notion of Guarantor-ship from outside Europe is acceptable to you? What level of territorial adjustment do you wish to see in the BBF?

I am totally opposed to any Treaty of Guarantees, particularly from Greece, Turkey and UK. I am also opposed to any Greek or Turkish troops being stationed on the island. I also consider demilitarisation as a flawed concept. Cyprus should not be demilitarised, and I also opposed the Zurich 1960 provisions in capping the size of the CNG. I consider the military to be the backbone of any nation. Having said that, military service should become voluntary, and I am also willing to compromise by allowing the TC community a minimum quota in defence matters, in order to alleviate their security concerns. I am also willing to accept compromise by accepting a Treaty of Guarantee from either EU, or UN but only for a fixed time period such as 10 years.

Territorial adjustment is an extremely important issue. The current territorial adjustment which appear to be giving the TCs control of 29% of Cyprus is unacceptable, especially since the Greek sector will be carrying the burden of industrial and service industry zones. In other words, the Greek sector will be the one burdened with providing both GCs and TCs economic prosperity and jobs. The TCs are wanting to negotiate many things such as "Virgin Birth" of 2 Federated states governed loosely by a Central Federal Government with little power except for matters of foreign Affairs and Defence. And even here, the TCs are asking for veto rights which effectively leaves them in 100% control of the Federation as well. In other words, the TCs want a Confederacy, which could quite easily facilitate the permanent partition they always wanted. This is why I advocate a fairer distribution in proportion with each communities population as at pre Jul, 1974. I advocate an 18%-82% land re-distribution, but with the condition that all citizens have a right to return to their lost homes.

I am opposed to "Virgin Birth". I advocate the maintenance and defence of the current Republic of Cyprus and it's evolution into a Strong Federation. The Republic of Cyprus is our last line of defence. It is our biggest weapon and this is why the Turks want us to disband it. If we ever disband the entity which gives us our legitimacy, then we have effectively lost the whole war and have capitulated to Turkey.

These more substantive things have been discussed in other threads in recent days by members, including P, but where do you stand on them? I do not think discussions on these should be ignored or left to negotiators alone. It may also make the voting of those members who wish to take part in this poll be a little better informed.

Formulating a solution in a few paragraphs is an injustice, as one would need to write a thesis as large as the Annan Plan itself, to fully address all issues. The above however is a very basic outline of where I stand. I have attempted to avoid symbolic rhetoric and address the issues with substance.

I thank all those who have supported me. I have received some PMs, from many of you and I will be replying to you all shortly.

I also hope that I have made my positions clear and I request your support in this poll. I stand here knowing that whatever I say and do is for 1 aim. To protect The Republic of Cyprus and to respect basic human and democratic rights and by the rule of EU law.

If any members have any additional questions, then please feel free to PM me.

I wish my opponent good luck!

Just wish to add to my manifesto regarding Security Issues and the 1960 Treaty of Guarantees:

I am opposed to any Treaty of guarantee as every single guarantor power has let Cyprus down and violated their obligations which they were bound by under the treaty.

Greece for example initiated a disastrous and illegal coup against the legitimate Government of Cyprus. This coup by The Greek Junta, was supported by Cypriot extremists and more importantly by the USA and to a lesser extent, the UK. This gave the green light for Turkey to invade Cyprus on 20 Jul 08, who claimed was protecting the TCs. Turkey had an opportunity of taking the moral high ground if they re-established the islands sovereignty as per the 1960 Zurich agreements as offered by the GCs before the ceasefire break out in Aug 1974. The third guarantor to Cyprus, Britain, did absolutely nothing to defend Cyprus and evidence also exists that Britain may have in actual fact of been just another accomplice to the Cyprus Calamity.

All three Guarantor Powers, under USA coercion, have violated the provisions of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee. This is more so the case with Turkey who has occupied Cyprus for 34 years.

Therefore, Cyprus can never trust these 3 Guarantors ever again.

As you can see, 2 big contributors to the Cyprus Problem have always been the USA and Britain, then followed by Greece and Turkey.

I ask Miltiades to elaborate on whether he agrees that USA and Britain are responsible for many things in Cyprus, including the Greek Coup, Turkish Invasion and continued occupation.

[Get Real!]

You’d think that this is a US presidential election… [Full Stop.] May I recommend that in the case of a draw, Zan should be made to kiss both their butts! [Full Stop.] The High Court has spoken… [Full Stop.]

And one for the road… [Full Stop.]

[miltiades]

No I do not!

You naughty boy , I have still got mine !!
I offered you my hand in friendship a few times , you rejected it .
Let me now give you my vote which will make us level at 12 each , call an end to the poll shake hands and be mates . After all if you were to lose I would only have Oracle and GR to fight with , not fair on them is it !!
Mate I have a sense of humour , have you , let me vote for you and call it a draw !!

Oh the comparisons that can be made to history repeating it self

I have just voted and it is 12 all......You make the final decision Miltiades...Do you want this foreigner out or not.....His fate is in your hands....

Zan , I have not called him a foreigner . He has never said that his motherland is TURKEY

[DT.]

For instance and here I also note your oft-posted commitment to the New Europe, how do you square a BBF solution to the laws of the same EU regarding freedom of movement and right to enjoy one's property?

BBF is just a fancy way of disguising partition. It is by it's very nature in contravention to basic EU laws and principles. It defines 2 self governing federated states, segregated on racial lines to maintain a numerical superiority of a particular community within it's so called zone. This can only be achieved by impeding freedom of movement, the right of certain individuals returning to their properties, and by limiting one communities democratic rights and hence human rights within that zone.

My position on this is that I support the implementation of the EU Acquis over all of Cyprus. All persons must have freedom of movement, and to enjoy basic democratic rights no matter where they reside. All refugees must be allowed the opportunity to return to their dispossessed homes. Any solution to Cyprus must conform to basic EU law. There can be no exception for Cyprus.

On other matters of substance I would ask where you stand on matters of security and territorial adjustments. What level of Turkish Army (if any at all of course) should remain post-solution and whether any notion of Guarantor-ship from outside Europe is acceptable to you? What level of territorial adjustment do you wish to see in the BBF?

I am totally opposed to any Treaty of Guarantees, particularly from Greece, Turkey and UK. I am also opposed to any Greek or Turkish troops being stationed on the island. I also consider demilitarisation as a flawed concept. Cyprus should not be demilitarised, and I also opposed the Zurich 1960 provisions in capping the size of the CNG. I consider the military to be the backbone of any nation. Having said that, military service should become voluntary, and I am also willing to compromise by allowing the TC community a minimum quota in defence matters, in order to alleviate their security concerns. I am also willing to accept compromise by accepting a Treaty of Guarantee from either EU, or UN but only for a fixed time period such as 10 years.

Territorial adjustment is an extremely important issue. The current territorial adjustment which appear to be giving the TCs control of 29% of Cyprus is unacceptable, especially since the Greek sector will be carrying the burden of industrial and service industry zones. In other words, the Greek sector will be the one burdened with providing both GCs and TCs economic prosperity and jobs. The TCs are wanting to negotiate many things such as "Virgin Birth" of 2 Federated states governed loosely by a Central Federal Government with little power except for matters of foreign Affairs and Defence. And even here, the TCs are asking for veto rights which effectively leaves them in 100% control of the Federation as well. In other words, the TCs want a Confederacy, which could quite easily facilitate the permanent partition they always wanted. This is why I advocate a fairer distribution in proportion with each communities population as at pre Jul, 1974. I advocate an 18%-82% land re-distribution, but with the condition that all citizens have a right to return to their lost homes.

I am opposed to "Virgin Birth". I advocate the maintenance and defence of the current Republic of Cyprus and it's evolution into a Strong Federation. The Republic of Cyprus is our last line of defence. It is our biggest weapon and this is why the Turks want us to disband it. If we ever disband the entity which gives us our legitimacy, then we have effectively lost the whole war and have capitulated to Turkey.

These more substantive things have been discussed in other threads in recent days by members, including P, but where do you stand on them? I do not think discussions on these should be ignored or left to negotiators alone. It may also make the voting of those members who wish to take part in this poll be a little better informed.

Formulating a solution in a few paragraphs is an injustice, as one would need to write a thesis as large as the Annan Plan itself, to fully address all issues. The above however is a very basic outline of where I stand. I have attempted to avoid symbolic rhetoric and address the issues with substance.

I thank all those who have supported me. I have received some PMs, from many of you and I will be replying to you all shortly.

I also hope that I have made my positions clear and I request your support in this poll. I stand here knowing that whatever I say and do is for 1 aim. To protect The Republic of Cyprus and to respect basic human and democratic rights and by the rule of EU law.

If any members have any additional questions, then please feel free to PM me.

I wish my opponent good luck!

Just wish to add to my manifesto regarding Security Issues and the 1960 Treaty of Guarantees:

I am opposed to any Treaty of guarantee as every single guarantor power has let Cyprus down and violated their obligations which they were bound by under the treaty.

Greece for example initiated a disastrous and illegal coup against the legitimate Government of Cyprus. This coup by The Greek Junta, was supported by Cypriot extremists and more importantly by the USA and to a lesser extent, the UK. This gave the green light for Turkey to invade Cyprus on 20 Jul 08, who claimed was protecting the TCs. Turkey had an opportunity of taking the moral high ground if they re-established the islands sovereignty as per the 1960 Zurich agreements as offered by the GCs before the ceasefire break out in Aug 1974. The third guarantor to Cyprus, Britain, did absolutely nothing to defend Cyprus and evidence also exists that Britain may have in actual fact of been just another accomplice to the Cyprus Calamity.

All three Guarantor Powers, under USA coercion, have violated the provisions of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee. This is more so the case with Turkey who has occupied Cyprus for 34 years.

Therefore, Cyprus can never trust these 3 Guarantors ever again.

As you can see, 2 big contributors to the Cyprus Problem have always been the USA and Britain, then followed by Greece and Turkey.

I ask Miltiades to elaborate on whether he agrees that USA and Britain are responsible for many things in Cyprus, including the Greek Coup, Turkish Invasion and continued occupation.

You're gonna get it now. Milt doesn't agree with the US conspiracy theories of Cyprus.

[zan]

No I do not!

You naughty boy , I have still got mine !!
I offered you my hand in friendship a few times , you rejected it .
Let me now give you my vote which will make us level at 12 each , call an end to the poll shake hands and be mates . After all if you were to lose I would only have Oracle and GR to fight with , not fair on them is it !!
Mate I have a sense of humour , have you , let me vote for you and call it a draw !!

Oh the comparisons that can be made to history repeating it self

I have just voted and it is 12 all......You make the final decision Miltiades...Do you want this foreigner out or not.....His fate is in your hands....

Zan , I have not called him a foreigner . He has never said that his motherland is TURKEY

Come on Miltiades:OR