Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

When I read the view that a post BBF Cyprus will be reunified I cannto help but smile.

Whether Bananiot and his co BBFers like it or not some degree of separation will have to be included from day one to save the GCs from EU fines. If, for example, the north does not implement a programme, like Natura 2000, to EU standards there will be an EU fine, but on whom? The whole of Cyprus, or on the community which failed to implement the programme? If there are enough violations then there is suspension of EU funds. Why should one side suffer because the other is too stubborn or too incapable to follow EU rules?

What we see so far is an attitude from Turkey and the TCs towards the EU which shows a massive misunderstanding about the nature of the EU and how it works. There is no messing about with the EU buraucracy.

[zan]

When I read the view that a post BBF Cyprus will be reunified I cannto help but smile.

Whether Bananiot and his co BBFers like it or not some degree of separation will have to be included from day one to save the GCs from EU fines. If, for example, the north does not implement a programme, like Natura 2000, to EU standards there will be an EU fine, but on whom? The whole of Cyprus, or on the community which failed to implement the programme? If there are enough violations then there is suspension of EU funds. Why should one side suffer because the other is too stubborn or too incapable to follow EU rules?

What we see so far is an attitude from Turkey and the TCs towards the EU which shows a massive misunderstanding about the nature of the EU and how it works. There is no messing about with the EU buraucracy.

You are making a lot of assumptions here aren't you Nikitas and taking out the probability that the EU might act as an adult organisation...

[Nikitas]

No assumptions, just experience.

Greece ignored some EU directives and paid the price. So have other countries. Why should both sides in Cyprus pay the price if one is deliberately late or unwilling to implement EU programmes?

So far RoC has been in full compliance with EU programmes. And let us not confuse laws with programmes such as Natura 2000 etc. They are not the same thing.

[zan]

No assumptions, just experience.

Greece ignored some EU directives and paid the price. So have other countries. Why should both sides in Cyprus pay the price if one is deliberately late or unwilling to implement EU programmes?

So far RoC has been in full compliance with EU programmes. And let us not confuse laws with programmes such as Natura 2000 etc. They are not the same thing.

So you think the EU would act like some authorities did with speed cameras...Put them up with no warning that they were there...Perhaps the EU would offer the help and make some time limits on reform...Or are you saying that we are not capable of such refined behaviour???

[Nikitas]

Let me detail a non political therefore non controversial area, the protection of wild birds.

Under directive 409/79 every nation member of the EU must protect wild bird habitat. The directive, as analysed in various decisions of the EU court, sets criteria. ALL AREAS which fulfill the criteria must be protected.

Holland was fined for not declaring ALL areas which fulfill the criteria as protected areas. Holland argued that it had protected most areas, but most was considered not enough.

So let us put this in a local context. If one of the two communal regions of a BBFed Cyprus applies the birds directive as the EU wants, but the other region does what Holland did, then there will be a violation, but by who? The whole BBF or the region which is in violation? If there is a fine or suspension of funding who will suffer it? If the federal government does not have the right to enforce EU regulations on ALL areas because of wide autonomy why should both areas suffer?

[Nikitas]

The implementation of EU directives and regulations is not simply a matter of refinement. There are countless instances of very advanced and sophisticated countries which have fouled up- Holland, Germany, UK, Sweden, have all at one time or other have been found on the wrong side of EU rules and fined.

[bill cobbett]

So how do we square the many circles? What are the workarounds to keep everyone happy?

Kifeas gave us this little pearl of a post, if he'll allow me to say so, in the thread "Not Good News For the TCs". I thought it was deserving of a little debate as it does show one approach to squaring one of the circles. K clearly isn't impressed but it's the near lateral thinking approach that caught my eye and the thought that perhaps it may also give us an insight to the approaches that may be being taken by negotiators.

Don't get too excited, because the Turks do not have an objection in Greek Cypriots being allowed to return and settle back home in the north, a long as it is under their racially based exclusive administration. In other words, the Greek Cypriots may freely return and settle in the north, start business and invest money, but they will not have any political and cultural rights from within the place (state) of their residence. Such a right to vote for local (state) legislating and governing elections, according to their warped thesis, will only have to be reserved for anyone who speaks Turkish as his native language, including the settlers from Turkey. Any GCs returning north, will be regarded as "sheep for milking," i.e. invest money to boost the TC economy and pay taxes to the TC state, but no decision making (voting) rights. In other words, apartheid in Europe, in an EU member state, and formal eradication of any GC heritage rights, after thousands of years of existence in the north!

You in here speak about the EU aqui, but this is meaningless as long as our side decides to accept the Turkish claims and thesis. And I have to inform you that there are people among the GC negotiating team, like for example defeatist Toumazos Tsielepis, who are ready to accommodate the Turkish demands. Toumazos Tsielepis, in an article in “Politis” newspaper of last February, argued in favour of us accepting the status of “eterodomotes” (those permanently residing in one place but exercise their political rights in another place) so that we “alleviate” the “fears” of the TCs in "accepting" the GCs to return back to their territory from which they were illegally expelled.

[Nikitas]

But that is what BBF was always about BC, the limitation of civil rights to members of each community in their own area, that is why it is called Bizonal and Bicommunal. This is no surprise. And we must not forget that it cuts both ways and the brunt might be borne by TCs in the south more than GCs in the north. Whether anyone likes it or not the main business and industrial centers of the island will be Limassol, Nicosia, Famagusta and to a lesser extent Larnaca. It does not take too much thought to see who will have more "eterodimotes" in whose territory.

In a post industrial society the service sector is the main wealth creator in the economy, and the south has cultivated services for decades. So those who have engineered this BBF idea may want to have a last minute rethink.

[Kifeas]

But that is what BBF was always about BC, the limitation of civil rights to members of each community in their own area, that is why it is called Bizonal and Bicommunal. This is no surprise. And we must not forget that it cuts both ways and the brunt might be borne by TCs in the south more than GCs in the north. Whether anyone likes it or not the main business and industrial centers of the island will be Limassol, Nicosia, Famagusta and to a lesser extent Larnaca. It does not take too much thought to see who will have more "eterodimotes" in whose territory.

In a post industrial society the service sector is the main wealth creator in the economy, and the south has cultivated services for decades. So those who have engineered this BBF idea may want to have a last minute rethink.

Nikitas, may I ask were have you gotten this completely false idea from, that a BBF was “always” about “the limitation of civil rights to members of each community in their own area?” There are many federations around the globe, and none is limiting the civil rights of any ethnic group into certain regions only, not even the Swiss and the Belgian models which are both forms of multi-communal and multi-zonal federations. It is a completely false idea, and I suggest you research more and improvise less!

The fear the TCs may have that the GCs will end up becoming the majority in both states, may easily become alleviated or even erased if they accept the reduction of “their” state’s territory down to a percentage closer to their legally accepted demographic and property share, and if the majority of them choose to move and permanently stay into that (smaller) zone. In such a case, they will always be the majority in such a smaller state or zone, since it is naturally impossible for so many GCs to be added into such a smaller area, so that the TC majority will be threatened. If on the other hand, the TCs expect that “their” zone should constitute as much as 29-30% of Cyprus and as much as 50% of its coastline areas, then the penalty they will have to accept paying will be the risk that one day it is possible that the GCs may become the majority in such a larger and vital area of Cyprus. The TCs must realize that they cannot have their cake, and eat it too at the same time, or to have their dog fed and their bread-loaf a whole!

[Nikitas]

Kifeas,

We are the only case where federation was defined a priori to be Bizonal and Bicommunal, implying separation along geographic and ethnic lines. The duality is absent from other federations. It was clear to me from day one of this idea, back in the 70s that it would be nothing more than a way of introducing a civilised form of partition. The Annan plan with its controlled residence proportions and property settlement confirmed it.

Now if we are talking American style federation, that is a whole different thing. So is the Swiss system and others. The similarities are very few between those and BBF.

I neither like nor approve of BBF. I just state its nature as they are serving it to us. There are people, in the media and on this forum, who are letting the naive suppose that BBF is something like the American system. To quote a Greek proverb, "alli mou deixes kai alli mou mpixes" the one you showed me is not the one you stuck me with, it seems to fit the situation.