Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Unlike the TC posters I am not overawed by so called Turkish military power. All armies can be defeated given the right organization and technology. But the cost is vast, and we have to ask if the end goal, removing the Turkish army, can be achieved by other means. I just happen to believe it can. And no I do not mean giving in to any pressure.

All armies can be defeated one way or another. The Turkish army is not unbeatable. But they're not the "civilised" British army of the 50's. If the National Guard were to engage Turkish military things would be different from when EOKA sought to rid the island of British rule. Everybody remember how barbaric the Turks were 34 years ago. Would they act different today? I don't think so. Turkish bullets and napalm bombs and God knows what would rain over the entire GC population. Non-combatants such as women, children and the elderly would not be spared. What if the Turks couldn't care less about conquering the southern parts? What if they decide to launch a campaign to scorch the south and leave nothing but a burning pile of rubble? The price would be much too dear.

... The canvas you paint dear Agios is too ghastly to contemplate. But on the other hand, can we live with people like that so close to our children? Can we turn a blind eye if they are so evil; a latent danger on our tiny Island? Are we not just procrastinating so that others may take responsibility instead of us?

[miltiades]

I'm not going to waste much time in debating with a bunch of Rambos , and if they start their usual nonsense beleive me I shall respond in kind.
They are a bunch of loonies whose brainpower originates from reading too many comics.
God help those who follow such bloody rubbish as posted on this forum by the Rambo mentality.
Cyprus takes on Turkey , liberates the occupied lands , strikes deep into Turkey and deals simultaneously with the 40 thousand Turkish troops as well as the settlers and the T/Cs. What a load of flying pigs !

[Oracle]

The only war I'd possibly condone would be if GC and TC alike joined forces and tried to expel Turkish forces from the island in order to free Cyprus and give it back to its natural citizens.

So war is OK so long as TCs say so too? Do the GCs alone not have a right to decide? And if the TCs were always happy to have the Turks around ... then GCs must just accept this decision, and forfeit Cyprus for ever?

[miltiades]

A new war is the last thing this island is in need of. The scars of yesteryear can and will heal eventually although it will take a long time. The 34 years of no solution is proof enough that time is needed badly. But a new war will open an ugly bleeding wound that won't heal in a foreseeable future. New generations will be poisoned by hate and violence, not in the form of tales of the past, but rather first hand experience. Enough people have suffered already, and many are still suffering. I mean, seriously, who the f*ck cares about a plot of land if you've lost your child to a bomb or bullet? It doesn't matter if that plot of land is worth £5 million. The lives of your children has no price tag!

As much as I want Turkish forces out of Cyprus and a reunited island where GC and TC can co-exist peacefully and equally I would never call for a war. The only war I'd possibly condone would be if GC and TC alike joined forces and tried to expel Turkish forces from the island in order to free Cyprus and give it back to its natural citizens. Still, the price would be very high. Personally, although I have no death wish, I'd be willing to risk my life for something bigger than me. But I would never allow a situation where my family is put to danger. I would engage an entire army on my own if necessary. But I would make sure my wife and children are in a safe place first. Quite frankly, I think the chances of a GC/TC joint effort to fight off Turkey and win are less than Turkey collapsing on her own one day. So I guess it's better to wait and watch her destroy herself than to challenge her and end up with Cyprus being 100% Turkish. The Cypriots (GC/TC) surviving would be in for a very hard time. Because Turkey would oppress and punish as if there was no tomorrow.

A new war would ruin the whole of Cyprus for a very long period, long enough for us, our children and grandchildren to be miserable for our entire lives. A new war would cause instability in the whole EU. Forget about a flourishing tourist business for a considerable amount of years. It will take much longer than it did last time to achieve some kind of trustworthy stability to allow for the "outer world" to want to do business with and visit Cyprus.

Some people keep harping about the Ottoman connection and seem stuck in 1571. +400 years is a long time, no one of us were existing back then. I would say that if your family have been in a country for that long, you belong in said country. No matter if you're a descendant of an invader. Anyone must admit that +400 years down the line the descendants are hardly responsible of what their ancestors did. We can hardly choose where to be born and by whom.

We can keep blaming people for what they did 34 years ago because it's still quite recent and people involved in the atrocities are still alive. But +400 years ago? Come on, somewhere a line must be drawn and some things must be considered history. I mean, where would the UK be if people were still fighting about who's Saxon and Norman?

What are you people asking for war thinking? It's enough suffering in the world already. Why are you so keen on bringing it on your own doorstep? Cyprus is in need of peace, not war.

A sensible post by a wise Cypriot.

[Mr. T]

I'm not going to waste much time in debating with a bunch of Rambos , and if they start their usual nonsense beleive me I shall respond in kind.
They are a bunch of loonies whose brainpower originates from reading too many comics.
God help those who follow such bloody rubbish as posted on this forum by the Rambo mentality.
Cyprus takes on Turkey , liberates the occupied lands , strikes deep into Turkey and deals simultaneously with the 40 thousand Turkish troops as well as the settlers and the T/Cs. What a load of flying pigs !

Militiades, your comments are much too kind. You do mere loonies a disservice by comparing them to this lot.

[Oracle]

ASome people keep harping about the Ottoman connection and seem stuck in 1571. +400 years is a long time, no one of us were existing back then. I would say that if your family have been in a country for that long, you belong in said country. No matter if you're a descendant of an invader. Anyone must admit that +400 years down the line the descendants are hardly responsible of what their ancestors did. We can hardly choose where to be born and by whom.

It is not a matter of being stuck in 1571. That was a long time ago admittedly, to remember the original invasion. But if the Ottomans had left it at that; perhaps a year or two of raping, pillaging and slaughter, then settled down as normal civilians ... we would have had a few hundred years of coexisting and no one would bat an eye-lid as to who was TC and who was GC by now.

But the original invaders did not integrate or stop their slavery and punishments upon us. They continued! .... and we were made to suffer time and time again by their presence as rulers ... the latest being 1974; and even that is not a matter of saying, well 34 years, time to forget and move on, because we cannot forget since if one of us GCs behaves like a GC and touches a Turkish flag ... they are shot!

Not to mention, unlike in other countries where invaders have integrated and you can rightly expect all to live in peace and not harp back to an invasion ... no one else but us GCs are forced to live with the knowledge of being racially discriminated within our own country such that a quarter of the native population are deprived their homes, and the rest of us our historical heritage. Where else does the invader of 400 years ago, still ethnically cleanse the inhabitants so many years after the original invasion?

Ask the invader why he does not forget he is an invader .... and still feels he has to impose his army to keep us from our homes and shoot us if we stray.

Do not ask the GCs why they do not forget they have an invader in their midst ... ask the phucking Turks why they still behave exactly as they did 400 years ago!

[miltiades]

The T/Cs suffered in the hands of the fanatics , from both sides , G/Cs extremists wanting to annihilate them and the Grey Wolves instilling the fear of God in them. The overwhelming majority of T/Cs are true Cypriots who consider , quite rightly , Cyprus as their country too. The moderates become the victims of the extremists who demand obedience and if its not offered the victim is labelled a traitor so that recriminations can take place under the barbaric excuse . All our problems are the result of actions by a small band of fanatics.
On this forum we have heard from T/Cs who consider Cyprus as their motherland , we have heard from G/Cs who do too and we have heard from the Hate Masters , the bravado brigade from both sides whose insatiable appetite for the continuation of hate will not be satisfied until , like Nero , watch Cyprus burning.
Our political and peaceful engagement will produce the required result , an amicable solution with Turkey taking its troops out of EU land where a militant front will bring carnage tears and blood with an unprecedented catastrophe inflicted upon our people and upon the future generations to come.

I'm pleased to note that more and more voices of reason are being heard louder and louder and that the circumstances under which such voices are being listened to are different from those of years gone by .

[zan]

ASome people keep harping about the Ottoman connection and seem stuck in 1571. +400 years is a long time, no one of us were existing back then. I would say that if your family have been in a country for that long, you belong in said country. No matter if you're a descendant of an invader. Anyone must admit that +400 years down the line the descendants are hardly responsible of what their ancestors did. We can hardly choose where to be born and by whom.

It is not a matter of being stuck in 1571. That was a long time ago admittedly, to remember the original invasion. But if the Ottomans had left it at that; perhaps a year or two of raping, pillaging and slaughter, then settled down as normal civilians ... we would have had a few hundred years of coexisting and no one would bat an eye-lid as to who was TC and who was GC by now.

But the original invaders did not integrate or stop their slavery and punishments upon us. They continued! .... and we were made to suffer time and time again by their presence as rulers ... the latest being 1974; and even that is not a matter of saying, well 34 years, time to forget and move on, because we cannot forget since if one of us GCs behaves like a GC and touches a Turkish flag ... they are shot!

Not to mention, unlike in other countries where invaders have integrated and you can rightly expect all to live in peace and not harp back to an invasion ... no one else but us GCs are forced to live with the knowledge of being racially discriminated within our own country such that a quarter of the native population are deprived their homes, and the rest of us our historical heritage. Where else does the invader of 400 years ago, still ethnically cleanse the inhabitants so many years after the original invasion?

Ask the invader why he does not forget he is an invader .... and still feels he has to impose his army to keep us from our homes and shoot us if we stray.

Do not ask the GCs why they do not forget they have an invader in their midst ... ask the phucking Turks why they still behave exactly as they did 400 years ago!

I think its to do with memes....Ask the corruptor why he does not forget he is a corrupter. Ask him why all the islands he "inhabits" are Greek and only Greek. Ask him why minorities disappear into obscurity.

[Agios Ionas]

So war is OK so long as TCs say so too? Do the GCs alone not have a right to decide? And if the TCs were always happy to have the Turks around ... then GCs must just accept this decision, and forfeit Cyprus for ever?

No. I would prefer that war should never be "ok". Unless you have to defend yourself against an attacking enemy. Turkey attacked and the GC's defended themselves 34 years ago. Today Turkey isn't attacking anymore, they're occupying. I think an attack should met by force. But an occupation is better fought with diplomacy in these days. Especially an occupation lasting this long. If the TC's kindly asked Turkey to leave and they didn't... well, that would make things slightly different... wouldn't it?

This is pure speculation, but you must admit that a war or planned attacks rather, against Turkish military, organised and planned by a joint force of GC/TC patriots, would look very very different in the eyes of the surrounding world? Compare that scenario to another where the GC's alone took on the Turk. Attacking a NATO member could mean trouble, BIG trouble. But what if Turkey was attacked by the ones they said they were "saving"? The world (and NATO) would find it easier to accept such attacks imho. The message would be clear... Turkey is an unwanted invader. Even unwanted by those they were going to "save". I'd like to think the world would side with Cyprus... David against Goliath. But if the GC's would attempt anything on their own they could very well lose the support they have in the surrounding world... even if they're "right".

I'm not so sure the current negotiations will end up being successful and/or accepted by a majority of the Cypriots on both 'sides'. But I think Turkey will leave without bloodshed sometime in the future. Sooner or later they will. Whether it's a stick or a carrot offered by the EU/US or whatever something will make them leave on their own. GC's and (most) TC's will rejoice. 34 years after this wonderful event 100% mutual trust will be established between Cypriots. And they will vote on politicians/parties depending on what they stand for while not even giving their ethnicity a second thought.

I refuse to bury the idea of a democratic and peaceful Cyprus for all Cypriots built on trust and companionship rather than military achievements. I will keep hoping for a peaceful solution to the Cyprus problem. However, if someone would attack me with lethal force I would fight back.

[Get Real!]

What good can a complex undemocratic political arrangement for Cyprus, purely and unashamedly based on racism, guaranteed outside interferences, complete demilitarization, illegal demographic rearrangement, and nothing but utter experimentation, possibly bring to the people of Cyprus?

In the absence of democracy and our constitution that secures our human rights, in the absence of economic prosperity that secures our future, in the absence of the right of return for the 180,000 refugees as dictated by law, in the absence of our rightful land and properties, in the absence of a national guard to provide a deterrent to potential invaders, and in the absence of the dignity that a sovereign country is entitled to, who can possibly argue that there is NEVER a time for war?

Perhaps, the problem is that some of you have been taking all these privileges for granted all these years, not realizing that they were possible only while you had your democratic constitution and all that goes along with it. However, if Christofias continues to yield to absurd and undemocratic Turkish and Turkish Cypriot demands all that is about to change…

Just how much are you prepared to lose for the sake of this destruction that Christofias has the audacity to call a “solution”? A solution for whom is what we should be asking… for Turkey?, for the Turkish Cypriots?, for the imported Mullahs perhaps?… because it certainly doesn’t look like a solution for YOU, and if there’s a price to pay to preserve YOUR hard-earned privileges do not shy away from it unless you’re prepared to give them up without a fight… otherwise known as a suicide.

Regards, GR.