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EOKA...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:52 pm

Bananiot wrote:Nikitas, not all Cypriots were illiterate fools as you like to generalise. Your argumments do not hold water and we only have to look and compare the fates of other colonies, British and French, which were kept for more than three generations. Cyprus and Kenya (Mau Mau) were the only two British colonies at the time that took to the arms. Huge countries, like Nigeria, Tanganika, Zanzibar, Ghana, Ivory Coast are just a few examples of countries that got their independence without a bullet fired.

As to your objections to BBF, I respect your stance, but you need to convince me that another solution is possible but make it real soon, for the clock is ticking against us.


Yes, but Cyprus has the fortune or misfortune for being at the cross roads of 3 continents. It is a vital forward deployment base, listening and surveillance outpost. So close to Israel, Persian Gulf, North Africa, Balkans, Caucasus, and Ukraine!!

Hardly comparable to any other country in terms of strategic importance. Cyprus was and is still considered a vital outpost in NATO's southern flank.
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:01 pm

Bananiot wrote:Paphitis, you know nothing, your world is one dimentional. You seem to think that we had a right for self determination and that the Brits were obliged to grant it to us, whenever we asked for it. This is being more than naive and childish. It reminds me of children crying "it is not fair".


You are saying that Cypriots did not have the right for determination. You are also saying that we should accept being "subjects", with no freedom or dignity. You can not be serious?

I feel very sorry for you Bananiot. You lack many things, not least of which is "self respect".
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Postby denizaksulu » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:05 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
No...I am not surprised that the GCs asked for ENOSIS. I too belive that it was a legitimate demand given the circumstances at the time...The mistake they made was not to realise it was an impossible dream...In fact it was a British trap into which they walked with sincere and innocent hearts...The moment they demanded Enosis with Greece they should have realised it would be like a red flag to a bull for the TCs...They should've realised the TC would also walk into the British trap with equal innocence,because they were made to belive that would be the end of them as a community...
And they believed it sincerely...


What you describe above is an example of British "Divide and Rule". We may very well have walked into their trap and the British were very clever in what they did. I sincerely blame the British for many things that have happened to Cyprus.

Now, I know nothing of a "Patriot plea" by Grivas...It is the first time I am hearing it...I would be very interested to see it in writing if you can provide me with any links...It would've fallen on deaf ears of course....The TCs were never going to trust Grivas...He was already been demonised by the British and the TMT soon after...So there was no chance in hell that the TCs would support the demand for Enosis...And I doubt very much that Grivas or Makarios believed they would get any support from the TCs...
I agree that things would've changed dramatically had they supported the push for Enosis,but as I said it was never on...


The "Patriot" plea from Grivas came about soon after the first inter communal violence on the island and the deployment of TC Auxiliary Police. Grivas was wise to the dangers of Britain's "Divide and Rule". Grivas then pleaded with the TC community as Patriots, and exercised some constraint by avoiding any reprisals against the TC community. When it became apparent that the TCs were still ignoring the plea, then he decided that he had no other choice but to try and defend the GCs.

I do not have a link, but I do remember hearing the plea on a documentary. I will try and find something for you, and I also request any help from other forumers who know more about this.

I also consider the TCs within their rights to object to ENOSIS. I did not say that TCs should succumb to the GC ENOSIS movement. What I was saying is that the TCs could have chosen not to side with the British, approached the GCs in a non belligerent manner, and make their opposition to ENOSIS known. If they also decided to morally join the GCs as countrymen and patriots, whilst making known their position on ENOSIS, then I do not see how it could be possible for the GCs to ignore it. In fact, I personally would have been touched by this show of union and would have respected it. We could have become "brothers and patriots", and the GCs would have, I would like to think, know choice but to abandon ENOSIS.


As I said earlier,the British and the TMT made sure that the TCs saw the demand for Enosis as a death sentence for them....Don't forget that both EOKA and the TMT killed more of their own than the other...Grivas was particularly brutal with the Communists who he saw as traitors. For the TMT anybody who opposed Taksim was a traitor...My information is that the EOKA killed some 200 GCs during 55-59 period...The TMT killed somewhat less TCs than that,but they did not have to...The TCs were totally intimidated by the fear of both the EOKA and the TMT...They fell into line pretty quickly...The seeds of the Sampson coup and the Turkish invasion was sown during the EOKA'a struggle for Enosis...And to make matters worse between the communities,there were the Auxillary police the British recruited from the TC community...One can safely say that without the existence of the EOKA,there would've been no need for the auxillaries...And on it goes...It is easy looking back now and think of what might've been had things been different...The truth of the matter is we the Cypriots stuffed up big time,largely assisted by the British,Turkey,Greece,the USA,the Soviets etc etc...And if we dont find it in our hearts now to admit our own mistakes,and keep blaming or demonising the other side,we would be leaving the playground to the warmongers,the fascists,the racists and the nationalists,who can easily make the guns speak again in Cyprus... :( :(



While talking about the killings both by EOKA and the TMT, I just remembered a new book published in Cyprus. It was called 'TMT'nin Kurbanlari',/ The Victims of the TMT. I went to two of the largest bookshops in the North, and asked for it. I was told in no uncertain terms that," we do not sell books like that". I also asked for Sevgul Uludag's opus on the victims of Cyprus, that was 'out of stock'. I am sure I will be able to obtain them from the RoC. I already have a willing volunteer to find them for me.

http://www.kibrisligazetesi.net/kibrisl ... e_id=14829

Regards
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:10 pm

Bananiot wrote:Paphitis, you know nothing, your world is one dimentional. You seem to think that we had a right for self determination and that the Brits were obliged to grant it to us, whenever we asked for it. This is being more than naive and childish. It reminds me of children crying "it is not fair".


So in accordance with you little rant, I guess that The Americans were also being childish when they declared the following:



IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:23 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
No...I am not surprised that the GCs asked for ENOSIS. I too belive that it was a legitimate demand given the circumstances at the time...The mistake they made was not to realise it was an impossible dream...In fact it was a British trap into which they walked with sincere and innocent hearts...The moment they demanded Enosis with Greece they should have realised it would be like a red flag to a bull for the TCs...They should've realised the TC would also walk into the British trap with equal innocence,because they were made to belive that would be the end of them as a community...
And they believed it sincerely...


What you describe above is an example of British "Divide and Rule". We may very well have walked into their trap and the British were very clever in what they did. I sincerely blame the British for many things that have happened to Cyprus.

Now, I know nothing of a "Patriot plea" by Grivas...It is the first time I am hearing it...I would be very interested to see it in writing if you can provide me with any links...It would've fallen on deaf ears of course....The TCs were never going to trust Grivas...He was already been demonised by the British and the TMT soon after...So there was no chance in hell that the TCs would support the demand for Enosis...And I doubt very much that Grivas or Makarios believed they would get any support from the TCs...
I agree that things would've changed dramatically had they supported the push for Enosis,but as I said it was never on...


The "Patriot" plea from Grivas came about soon after the first inter communal violence on the island and the deployment of TC Auxiliary Police. Grivas was wise to the dangers of Britain's "Divide and Rule". Grivas then pleaded with the TC community as Patriots, and exercised some constraint by avoiding any reprisals against the TC community. When it became apparent that the TCs were still ignoring the plea, then he decided that he had no other choice but to try and defend the GCs.

I do not have a link, but I do remember hearing the plea on a documentary. I will try and find something for you, and I also request any help from other forumers who know more about this.

I also consider the TCs within their rights to object to ENOSIS. I did not say that TCs should succumb to the GC ENOSIS movement. What I was saying is that the TCs could have chosen not to side with the British, approached the GCs in a non belligerent manner, and make their opposition to ENOSIS known. If they also decided to morally join the GCs as countrymen and patriots, whilst making known their position on ENOSIS, then I do not see how it could be possible for the GCs to ignore it. In fact, I personally would have been touched by this show of union and would have respected it. We could have become "brothers and patriots", and the GCs would have, I would like to think, know choice but to abandon ENOSIS.


As I said earlier,the British and the TMT made sure that the TCs saw the demand for Enosis as a death sentence for them....Don't forget that both EOKA and the TMT killed more of their own than the other...Grivas was particularly brutal with the Communists who he saw as traitors. For the TMT anybody who opposed Taksim was a traitor...My information is that the EOKA killed some 200 GCs during 55-59 period...The TMT killed somewhat less TCs than that,but they did not have to...The TCs were totally intimidated by the fear of both the EOKA and the TMT...They fell into line pretty quickly...The seeds of the Sampson coup and the Turkish invasion was sown during the EOKA'a struggle for Enosis...And to make matters worse between the communities,there were the Auxillary police the British recruited from the TC community...One can safely say that without the existence of the EOKA,there would've been no need for the auxillaries...And on it goes...It is easy looking back now and think of what might've been had things been different...The truth of the matter is we the Cypriots stuffed up big time,largely assisted by the British,Turkey,Greece,the USA,the Soviets etc etc...And if we dont find it in our hearts now to admit our own mistakes,and keep blaming or demonising the other side,we would be leaving the playground to the warmongers,the fascists,the racists and the nationalists,who can easily make the guns speak again in Cyprus... :( :(



While talking about the killings both by EOKA and the TMT, I just remembered a new book published in Cyprus. It was called 'TMT'nin Kurbanlari',/ The Victims of the TMT. I went to two of the largest bookshops in the North, and asked for it. I was told in no uncertain terms that," we do not sell books like that". I also asked for Sevgul Uludag's opus on the victims of Cyprus, that was 'out of stock'. I am sure I will be able to obtain them from the RoC. I already have a willing volunteer to find them for me.

http://www.kibrisligazetesi.net/kibrisl ... e_id=14829

Regards


I can recommend Işık Kitabevi (in the old walled city of Nicosia) for critical literature. I think Sevgul Uludag's book genuinely is sold out.
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:31 pm

You are saying that Cypriots did not have the right for determination. You are also saying that we should accept being "subjects", with no freedom or dignity. You can not be serious?


Paphitis, if this is what you understood of what I wrote then there is no point talking to you.

Kikapu, I am well aware of the differences of the two sides that have been recorded by the working groups. These differences will be sorted out at the direct talks between Christofias and Talat. If there were no differences there would have been no problem.

However, the real issue is that of federation. In the Greek Cypriot side there are forces that do not want federation, whatever type. BBF is their easy target and you can rest assured that even if the best of federations is offered these forces will say no. These are the nationalists among us and when some people try to tell us that they do not exist I simply lough.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:35 pm

Bananiot wrote:Paphitis, you know nothing, your world is one dimentional. You seem to think that we had a right for self determination and that the Brits were obliged to grant it to us, whenever we asked for it. This is being more than naive and childish. It reminds me of children crying "it is not fair".


United Nations General Assembly's proclamation on 14 December 1960 of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples - resolution 1514 (XV).

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Bye-bye Bananiot, time for you to join the Alcoholic’s Anonymous forum…
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Postby perdike » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:41 pm

Paphitis wrote:
BC Numismatics wrote:Connor,
EOKA were the Greek Cypriot equivilant of Sinn Fein/I.R.A. & Z.A.N.U.-P.F. - scum of the earth who deserve nothing less than being put to death,along with the Turkish Cypriot equivilant of EOKA!

Aidan.


You absolutely have no idea what the hell you are talking about. The IRA are not scum of this earth, and neither were EOKA.

You on the other hand have proven to be the biggest dick head on this forum. But hey, you are a Kiwi after all, and you do have an insatiable appetite for sheep!


Please, just so everyone is quite clear. This bogotted, hate-filled idiot , BC Numismatics, IS NOT A NEW ZEALANDER.
God knows how he ever got in here, but its my bet he won,t stay much longer.
I'll bet he is a Paisley-ite Northern Irish.
He is NOT a KIWI, OK? Even our sheep would pass him by!!!
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Postby Nikitas » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:45 pm

Bananiot said:

"not all Cypriots were illiterate fools as you like to generalise"

I did NOT say they were. Read the post again. I referred to "politically primitive" a phrase borrowed from another poster. The system imposed by the British, of the legislative council under the Governong, with his vote being the decider, led to a skewed and undemocratic way of doing things. The result of this and other choices of the British did not allow for a solid foundation of democracy to arise. Nothing to do with education.

It is ironic that a British Governor would complain about moneylenders being the majority profession on HIS legislative council yet he did nothing about it. This was pax Britannica! And they allowed churchmen to stand for election in the council thus encouraging the church to get involved in politics which was a BIG mistake as we now know.

No one expects the British in the 20s to have been able to predict the future. Just to govern Cyprus as they governed Britain.
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:51 pm

Bananiot wrote:
Kikapu, I am well aware of the differences of the two sides that have been recorded by the working groups. These differences will be sorted out at the direct talks between Christofias and Talat. If there were no differences there would have been no problem.

However, the real issue is that of federation. In the Greek Cypriot side there are forces that do not want federation, whatever type. BBF is their easy target and you can rest assured that even if the best of federations is offered these forces will say no. These are the nationalists among us and when some people try to tell us that they do not exist I simply lough.


I personally believe, that a true Federation is the only way to go, despite what some nationalist may think. But, if pushed came to shove, I believe a True Federation with True Democracy can be sold to the nationalist Bananiot, but one thing they are not going to be sold on, is to give up the Unitary state and form a Confederation under a disguised Federation of two sovereign states by allocating the third of the land to the TC's with limited usage for the GC's, and at the same time, limitations on freedom of movement as well as having their Human Rights and Democratic Rights violated by not being able to vote in the north, without even any guarantees that they will even get their land and properties back. To add to that, anytime in the future, the TC's can call it a day with the union, and vote to secede from it, and there goes third of the island for ever. These possibilities of what can happen, and listening to the NeoPartitionist, by not wanting a True Federation and True democracy, does make me as a TC question their motives, let alone all your Nationalist in the south in wanting to keep hold onto the Unitary state. The GC's can be sold on a genuine peace solution as I described above, but they are not going to say yes to anything that has dangers ahead. The NeoPartitionist want a settlement that puts the pieces in places, that a cessation can occur, if the desire is there. Listening to Talat, Halil, Zan and VP, all indications are, that the desires for a cessation are there.
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