Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I firmly believe that GCs, who consisted 80% of the population, were well within their rights to demand and fight for ENOSIS. They demanded ENOSIS due to strong cultural ties with Greece and because they did not see independence as a viable option at the time.

We are talking about a people that have practically never had any form of self determination for centuries. In fact, I am totally amazed at the Cypriot spirit and our ability to maintain our own culture and nationality, considering the countless invasions and persecutions. So, I ask you, are you surprised that the GCs asked for ENOSIS?

If there was no demand for ENOSIS, then perhaps things would have been different. The same can be said about the TCs if they chose not to ignore the "Patriot" plea from Grivas. The TCs ignored the plea, and formed TMT. Can you imagine what would have happened if the TCs actually united with the GCs, or at least provided moral support? Do you think we would have been able to persist with ENOSIS? I firmly believe that the TCs also had a great opportunity to unite with the GCs and even voice their opposition to ENOSIS. This was the time to unite as one brotherhood. If you considered the GCs as your "patriots", then you should have reached out during these bad times. Friends and Patriots stick together, particularly during tough times. Now, it is sadly too late! The egg shell is broken and it can not be fixed.

No...I am not surprised that the GCs asked for ENOSIS. I too belive that it was a legitimate demand given the circumstances at the time...The mistake they made was not to realise it was an impossible dream...In fact it was a British trap into which they walked with sincere and innocent hearts...The moment they demanded Enosis with Greece they should have realised it would be like a red flag to a bull for the TCs...They should've realised the TC would also walk into the British trap with equal innocence,because they were made to belive that would be the end of them as a community...
And they believed it sincerely...

Now, I know nothing of a "Patriot plea" by Grivas...It is the first time I am hearing it...I would be very interested to see it in writing if you can povide me with any links...It would've fallen on deaf ears of course....The TCs were never going to trust Grivas...He was already been demonised by the British and the TMT soon after...So there was no chance in hell that the TCs would support the demand for Enosis...And I doubt very much that Grivas or Makarios believed they would get any support from the TCs...
I agree that things would've changed dramatically had they supported the push for Enosis,but as I said it was never on...

And apologies about calling you an Ottoman Remnant. This is really not my true nature.

Your apology accepted with thanks. But make no mistake about it,mate..After nearly 400 years of occupation we are all Ottoman remnants,don't you think???

[Paphitis]

No...I am not surprised that the GCs asked for ENOSIS. I too belive that it was a legitimate demand given the circumstances at the time...The mistake they made was not to realise it was an impossible dream...In fact it was a British trap into which they walked with sincere and innocent hearts...The moment they demanded Enosis with Greece they should have realised it would be like a red flag to a bull for the TCs...They should've realised the TC would also walk into the British trap with equal innocence,because they were made to belive that would be the end of them as a community...
And they believed it sincerely...

What you describe above is an example of British "Divide and Rule". We may very well have walked into their trap and the British were very clever in what they did. I sincerely blame the British for many things that have happened to Cyprus.

Now, I know nothing of a "Patriot plea" by Grivas...It is the first time I am hearing it...I would be very interested to see it in writing if you can provide me with any links...It would've fallen on deaf ears of course....The TCs were never going to trust Grivas...He was already been demonised by the British and the TMT soon after...So there was no chance in hell that the TCs would support the demand for Enosis...And I doubt very much that Grivas or Makarios believed they would get any support from the TCs...
I agree that things would've changed dramatically had they supported the push for Enosis,but as I said it was never on...

The "Patriot" plea from Grivas came about soon after the first inter communal violence on the island and the deployment of TC Auxiliary Police. Grivas was wise to the dangers of Britain's "Divide and Rule". Grivas then pleaded with the TC community as Patriots, and exercised some constraint by avoiding any reprisals against the TC community. When it became apparent that the TCs were still ignoring the plea, then he decided that he had no other choice but to try and defend the GCs.

I do not have a link, but I do remember hearing the plea on a documentary. I will try and find something for you, and I also request any help from other forumers who know more about this.

I also consider the TCs within their rights to object to ENOSIS. I did not say that TCs should succumb to the GC ENOSIS movement. What I was saying is that the TCs could have chosen not to side with the British, approached the GCs in a non belligerent manner, and make their opposition to ENOSIS known. If they also decided to morally join the GCs as countrymen and patriots, whilst making known their position on ENOSIS, then I do not see how it could be possible for the GCs to ignore it. In fact, I personally would have been touched by this show of union and would have respected it. We could have become "brothers and patriots", and the GCs would have, I would like to think, know choice but to abandon ENOSIS.

[Nikitas]

I remember the Patriot plea, delivered in the form of leaflets distributed in major towns.

It is hard not to play devil's advocate here and speculate whether the plea was genuine or a way out of a problem that EOKA faced once pitted against the TMT-British duo. EOKA was a small cadre of people, it could sting the British badly but it could not fight an urban set piece battle, which is what TMT was specialising in at the time. EOKA could not move arms about the island, since its members faced the death penalty for mere possession of even a shotgun cartridge and people suspected of belonging were interned in Kokkinotrimithia concentration camp.

On the other hand it might have been a genuine call, once it was realised that Enosis was not possible mostly because Greece itself was lukewarm on the idea.

[Bananiot]

It is all so easy (convenient and patriotic) to blame the British for all our misforunes. It is the remedy for all ailments but it does not hold water in the real world, I am afraid. Thus we are left chasing shadows.

The Brits started looking at the future of Cyprus before the second world war was over. In the summer of 1944, the Brits sent Sir Cosmo Parkinson to Cyprus. His mandate was to debate with the representatives of the Cypriot people the constitutional future of post war Cyprus. At the time AKEL was the only organised big party in Cyprus. It had control over the biggest municipalities and it controlled the only trade union movement, PEO. Right from the beginning it asked its supporters to demonstrate against Parkinson. The masses came into the streets shouting "down with Sir Cosmo, long live the union of Cyprus with Greece". You see, at the time the communists were winning in Greece and it very much looked like Greece was to turn into a peoples' republic after liberation. Sir Cosmo left Cyprus in a hurry.

In 1947, the Brits offered the Constitutional Assembly (diaskeptiki, in Greek). AKEL, probably more mature by now, accepted, along with some level headed persons from the right, such as Ioannis Klerides, the father of Glafkos. Unluckily for Cyprus, this time the church with the nationalist right decided to abstain. Thus, basically only the communists participated in the Assembly and this terrified the British government. As a result, because the Brits did not want the government of Cyprus to fall into communist hands, offered minimum constitutional rights that would lead to self determination. AKEL did not accept the proposals.

Ploutis Servas, in almost all his books, claims that the British government offered, had we accepted their proposals, the right of self determination within 10 years.

Now, in a complicated issue such as ours, to simply blame one side and just close the book, is tantamount to simple pure ignorance. Paphitis, do some reading (there are plenty of books around) and draw your own conclusions. The internet will not help you here.

[Nikitas]

Bananiot,

The British sent Sir Cosmo to a society which after three generations of British rule was still politically primitive, the characterisation is borrowed frm Mr T, a poster on the Forum.

Who is to blame for not having a flourishing democracy in Cyprus after three generations of British rule? Who kept the system within the strict confines of the legislative council with its skewed system of engineered voting so the Governor would always have the deciding vote? Who else but the British!

It was a system which allowed the corrupt moneylenders to zoom ahead at the expense of the population. I posted in another thread the comment of Governor Storrs who abhorred the preponderance of money lenders on the council. Imagine that! He realised how the system he headed was faulty! And what did he and other Governors do to change it? Sweet Fuck All.

It is interesting to search back and see how the big names of Cyprus, in both communities, establised themselves under British rule.

It seems that all involved in Cyprus made some humongous blunders. I hope we are not planning another one of those with BBF with its planned deviations from EU aquis

[BirKibrisli]

No...I am not surprised that the GCs asked for ENOSIS. I too belive that it was a legitimate demand given the circumstances at the time...The mistake they made was not to realise it was an impossible dream...In fact it was a British trap into which they walked with sincere and innocent hearts...The moment they demanded Enosis with Greece they should have realised it would be like a red flag to a bull for the TCs...They should've realised the TC would also walk into the British trap with equal innocence,because they were made to belive that would be the end of them as a community...
And they believed it sincerely...

What you describe above is an example of British "Divide and Rule". We may very well have walked into their trap and the British were very clever in what they did. I sincerely blame the British for many things that have happened to Cyprus.

Now, I know nothing of a "Patriot plea" by Grivas...It is the first time I am hearing it...I would be very interested to see it in writing if you can provide me with any links...It would've fallen on deaf ears of course....The TCs were never going to trust Grivas...He was already been demonised by the British and the TMT soon after...So there was no chance in hell that the TCs would support the demand for Enosis...And I doubt very much that Grivas or Makarios believed they would get any support from the TCs...
I agree that things would've changed dramatically had they supported the push for Enosis,but as I said it was never on...

The "Patriot" plea from Grivas came about soon after the first inter communal violence on the island and the deployment of TC Auxiliary Police. Grivas was wise to the dangers of Britain's "Divide and Rule". Grivas then pleaded with the TC community as Patriots, and exercised some constraint by avoiding any reprisals against the TC community. When it became apparent that the TCs were still ignoring the plea, then he decided that he had no other choice but to try and defend the GCs.

I do not have a link, but I do remember hearing the plea on a documentary. I will try and find something for you, and I also request any help from other forumers who know more about this.

I also consider the TCs within their rights to object to ENOSIS. I did not say that TCs should succumb to the GC ENOSIS movement. What I was saying is that the TCs could have chosen not to side with the British, approached the GCs in a non belligerent manner, and make their opposition to ENOSIS known. If they also decided to morally join the GCs as countrymen and patriots, whilst making known their position on ENOSIS, then I do not see how it could be possible for the GCs to ignore it. In fact, I personally would have been touched by this show of union and would have respected it. We could have become "brothers and patriots", and the GCs would have, I would like to think, know choice but to abandon ENOSIS.

As I said earlier,the British and the TMT made sure that the TCs saw the demand for Enosis as a death sentence for them....Don't forget that both EOKA and the TMT killed more of their own than the other...Grivas was particularly brutal with the Communists who he saw as traitors. For the TMT anybody who opposed Taksim was a traitor...My information is that the EOKA killed some 200 GCs during 55-59 period...The TMT killed somewhat less TCs than that,but they did not have to...The TCs were totally intimidated by the fear of both the EOKA and the TMT...They fell into line pretty quickly...The seeds of the Sampson coup and the Turkish invasion was sown during the EOKA'a struggle for Enosis...And to make matters worse between the communities,there were the Auxillary police the British recruited from the TC community...One can safely say that without the existence of the EOKA,there would've been no need for the auxillaries...And on it goes...It is easy looking back now and think of what might've been had things been different...The truth of the matter is we the Cypriots stuffed up big time,largely assisted by the British,Turkey,Greece,the USA,the Soviets etc etc...And if we dont find it in our hearts now to admit our own mistakes,and keep blaming or demonising the other side,we would be leaving the playground to the warmongers,the fascists,the racists and the nationalists,who can easily make the guns speak again in Cyprus...

[Paphitis]

It is all so easy (convenient and patriotic) to blame the British for all our misforunes. It is the remedy for all ailments but it does not hold water in the real world, I am afraid. Thus we are left chasing shadows.

I am very surprised at your post.

Who was blaming the British for all our misfortunes? The British played an extremely significant role. But then others also played their role as well. The GCs, TCs, TMT, EOKA B, our politicians, and AKEL.

What are you driving at?

The Brits started looking at the future of Cyprus before the second world war was over. In the summer of 1944, the Brits sent Sir Cosmo Parkinson to Cyprus. His mandate was to debate with the representatives of the Cypriot people the constitutional future of post war Cyprus. At the time AKEL was the only organised big party in Cyprus. It had control over the biggest municipalities and it controlled the only trade union movement, PEO. Right from the beginning it asked its supporters to demonstrate against Parkinson. The masses came into the streets shouting "down with Sir Cosmo, long live the union of Cyprus with Greece". You see, at the time the communists were winning in Greece and it very much looked like Greece was to turn into a peoples' republic after liberation. Sir Cosmo left Cyprus in a hurry.

So let me get this straight. Britain was considering allowing Cyprus self determination, if it not were for the Communists? I would have thought that the basic ideal for self determination, is for the people to have the freedom to be and vote for whoever they want, including Communism???

Could it be that the British did not want to grant self determination to Cyprus, because the island has a substantial Communist following and ideology? I am sure it has something to do with the threat of Soviet Influence in the East Mediterranean.

In 1947, the Brits offered the Constitutional Assembly (diaskeptiki, in Greek). AKEL, probably more mature by now, accepted, along with some level headed persons from the right, such as Ioannis Klerides, the father of Glafkos. Unluckily for Cyprus, this time the church with the nationalist right decided to abstain. Thus, basically only the communists participated in the Assembly and this terrified the British government. As a result, because the Brits did not want the government of Cyprus to fall into communist hands, offered minimum constitutional rights that would lead to self determination. AKEL did not accept the proposals.

And why would anyone accept such proposals? This was not granting freedom and self determination to Cypriots. What youre basically saying is that Cyprus never had any right to self determination because a significant portion of the Cypriot population was Communist!!

I mean, how dare the Cypriots be Communist (Sarcastic Tone)!!

Bananiot, I seriosly think you are a warped individual!!

Ploutis Servas, in almost all his books, claims that the British government offered, had we accepted their proposals, the right of self determination within 10 years.

The British did not offer anything. There is no self determination if the population does not have the freedom to express it's views in a democratic fashion.

Now, in a complicated issue such as ours, to simply blame one side and just close the book, is tantamount to simple pure ignorance. Paphitis, do some reading (there are plenty of books around) and draw your own conclusions. The internet will not help you here.

I have never blamed only 1 side. It looks as though you are the 1 that needs to read my posts again. I have only ever stated, that the British shoulder a significant portion of the blame. There are others that are to blame from both the GC and TC side of the fence. But we can discuss that in another thread.

I have done plenty of reading on the subject but unlike you, I do not profess to knowing all the answers. I have also discussed the matter extensively within Australian Defence Circles and have had a lot of contact and discussion with RAF historians. I am under no illusions as to why Cyprus has never been allowed proper freedom and self determination. I am under no illusions as to why the island is now partitioned. So please refrain from the sarcasm.

[Bananiot]

Nikitas, not all Cypriots were illiterate fools as you like to generalise. Your argumments do not hold water and we only have to look and compare the fates of other colonies, British and French, which were kept for more than three generations. Cyprus and Kenya (Mau Mau) were the only two British colonies at the time that took to the arms. Huge countries, like Nigeria, Tanganika, Zanzibar, Ghana, Ivory Coast are just a few examples of countries that got their independence without a bullet fired.

As to your objections to BBF, I respect your stance, but you need to convince me that another solution is possible but make it real soon, for the clock is ticking against us.

[Bananiot]

Paphitis, you know nothing, your world is one dimentional. You seem to think that we had a right for self determination and that the Brits were obliged to grant it to us, whenever we asked for it. This is being more than naive and childish. It reminds me of children crying "it is not fair".

[Kikapu]

As to your objections to BBF, I respect your stance, but you need to convince me that another solution is possible but make it real soon, for the clock is ticking against us.

Bananiot,

Halil posted this the other day. Could you please do us a favour by telling us which of the two different BBF's proposed do you support and why....thanks.!

Differences between 2 sides.................

GC's side:
Solution must entail a single sovereignty ,single citizenship , bi-zonal,bi-communal solution which respects the fundemental principles of EU law,the solution will no be a new partnership state ,but will transform the existing 1960 ROC into a federal state which was seen as a major concession of the GC side in 1977 absolutly no Turkish guarentees will be acceptable and neither a confederation ,nor new partnership of 2 states through virgin birth will be accepted .The federal solution will be a partnership of two communities.

TC's side:
Solution must entail the existing of Turkish and Greek Cypriot constituent states of equal status,continuation of Turkish guarantees as established in the 1960 treaties. and more importantly to established a new partnership state in which the sovereign rights both Turkish and Greek Cypriots will be protected on the concept of two peoples.This is why the Turkish side has given all its might for there to be politicaly equality in the solution.İn international law ,only people and a nation have the right to self determinate .''Communities'' however do not .