Cyprus-Forum.com

[michalis5354]

EOKA wronlgy associated freedom with ENOSIS not independence .And If some wanted their Freedom trhough independence were they traitors? Do we have evidence If all those that were killed If they collaborating with British ? . They may had diagreed with Enosis .

Grivas was a strategist with Blinkers this only can explain his actions after Independence . A wise strategist is always wise throuhout his life and not at a specific time scale.

[Paphitis]

One aspect of this whole sad saga keeps staring us in the face...
In 1950 there were 400,000 GCs and 100,000TCs give or take a few thousand other minorities....Yet the GCs totally ignored the feelings of the TCs and pushed ahead with their demand for ENOSIS....What did they think the TCs would do against such a terrible possibility (for them!)????

I am yet to read any attempt by any rightthinking member of this Forum addressing this issue...And please don't say "bad luck,majority rules"...
My point is those pushing for ENOSIS knew how the TCs would react...So how did they really hope to overcome the TC resistance??? Come on people,time to show some empathy for your TC compatriots...What would you do if you were in their shoes???? And put your hands on your hearts and tell me,was it not asking for real trouble for GCs to disregard the TC feelings on this...given the past 450 years of Cyprus history????

The mere fact that the TCs resisted the democratic right of the majority in their quest for self determination, and them forming TMT in 1958, was the first treasonous act of the TCs towards the GCs and the island of Cyprus.

The TCs collaborated with the British during 1955-1959. They withdrew from Government in 1963. They also committed atrocities towards the GCs. And last but definitely not least, they assisted Turkey in the July 1974 invasion.

So where in all that do the TCs deserve sympathy? Throughout the history of the island, the TCs committed "High Treason" towards their country.

Here is the definition of "High Treason":

"Disloyalty or treachery to one's country or its government, to impair the well-being of a state to which one owes allegiance; the crime of giving aid or comfort to the enemies of one's government"

Perhaps you are referring to the 500-600 or so that were massacred by the GCs. Off course we sympathise with the victims of these atrocities. Do the TCs sympathise with our 10,000 victims between 1958-1974? Too much to ask?

But you ask too much my friend when you expect sympathy for your "High Treason" on several fronts. If the TCs had collaborated with EOKA from day 1, then I am positive that extremely strong bridges would have been built and bonds formed, which would have resulted in "real" nationhood and brotherhood. But this was not your goal. You wanted TAKSIM or to control Cyprus through Turkey.

Go and find another shoulder to cry on!!!

Credits: GR! for using part of his research and posts!

[Paphitis]

EOKA wronlgy associated freedom with ENOSIS not independence .And If some wanted their Freedom trhough independence were they traitors? Do we have evidence If all those that were killed If they collaborating with British ? . They may had diagreed with Enosis .

Grivas was a strategist with Blinkers this only can explain his actions after Independence . A wise strategist is always wise throuhout his life and not at a specific time scale.

The movement for "ENOSIS" as far as what I am concerned was due to the lack of self belief from the Cypriots to be able to go it alone. This psychological side effect manifested itself upon the Cypriots due to the fact of being ruled and oppressed by foreign powers for centuries. This is no criticism of Cypriots but a side effect of being constantly ruled as "subjects". IMHO

I do not have evidence as to why anyone was killed by EOKA. I have heard of different stories, but I am not sure as to their validity. I also sympathise with this loss of life (may they all RIP).

But 1955-1959 was a war. A war bought upon Cypriots by the British after many years of oppressive rule. And in wars many people are killed, and I am sure, that some innocent civilians were also killed. These are the cold harsh facts my friend. IMHO

[miltiades]

One aspect of this whole sad saga keeps staring us in the face...
In 1950 there were 400,000 GCs and 100,000TCs give or take a few thousand other minorities....Yet the GCs totally ignored the feelings of the TCs and pushed ahead with their demand for ENOSIS....What did they think the TCs would do against such a terrible possibility (for them!)????

I am yet to read any attempt by any rightthinking member of this Forum addressing this issue...And please don't say "bad luck,majority rules"...
My point is those pushing for ENOSIS knew how the TCs would react...So how did they really hope to overcome the TC resistance??? Come on people,time to show some empathy for your TC compatriots...What would you do if you were in their shoes???? And put your hands on your hearts and tell me,was it not asking for real trouble for GCs to disregard the TC feelings on this...given the past 450 years of Cyprus history????

The mere fact that the TCs resisted the democratic right of the majority in their quest for self determination, and them forming TMT in 1958, was the first treasonous act of the TCs towards the GCs and the island of Cyprus.

The TCs collaborated with the British during 1955-1959. They withdrew from Government in 1963. They also committed atrocities towards the GCs. And last but definitely not least, they assisted Turkey in the July 1974 invasion.

So where in all that do the TCs deserve sympathy? Throughout the history of the island, the TCs committed "High Treason" towards their country.

Here is the definition of "High Treason":

"Disloyalty or treachery to one's country or its government, to impair the well-being of a state to which one owes allegiance; the crime of giving aid or comfort to the enemies of one's government"

Perhaps you are referring to the 500-600 or so that were massacred by the GCs. Off course we sympathise with the victims of these atrocities. Do the TCs sympathise with our 10,000 victims between 1958-1974? Too much to ask?

But you ask too much my friend when you expect sympathy for your "High Treason" on several fronts. If the TCs had collaborated with EOKA from day 1, then I am positive that extremely strong bridges would have been built and bonds formed, which would have resulted in "real" nationhood and brotherhood. But this was not your goal. You wanted TAKSIM or to control Cyprus through Turkey.

Go and find another shoulder to cry on!!!

Credits: GR! for using part of his research and posts!

As one who supported the struggle and lived through the years of 1955-1959 , I can say hand on my heart that we did not for a second , at that time , considered that the T/Cs had any rights what so ever to voice their objection to the struggle. As far as we were concerned Cyprus was Greek and the T/Cs were remnants of the Ottoman Empire.
Paphitis said that " if the T/Cs had collaborated with EOKA" , how could they , since even the G/C Communists were barred from joining the struggle.
I have on numerous occasions fully justified the struggle and still do to this day , the goal of the struggle , which I supported then , was nevertheless erroneous but unavoidable given the fact that , as Paphitis says , we were never the masters of our own destiny and never experienced the privilege of being totally independent hence our strong draw to Greece.
It is an undisputed fact that the feelings of T/Cs were NEVER considered , they were seen if anything as unimportant to our struggle. So oblivious we were of any objection to the struggle by any one.
May I also say that the EOKA fighting force was an extremely well disciplined and morally accountable to the leadership who would come down hard on any deviations from what was considered a civilized struggle for freedom.

With hindsight , the struggle should have been one of independence for the Cypriot people supported also by Turkey as well as Greece , alas it was not.

[Bananiot]

Birkibrisli asked a valid question which remains unanswered. The Turkish Cypriots were alienated from EOKA (as was the Left for a different reason) from the moment EOKA set its objective as "enosis and only enosis". Paphitis's (gallant) effort to explain this on the basis of "got used to having masters" is historically inept since enosis was the aspiration of many Greek Cypriot generations. I have said before that the Greek Cypriots were quite legitimate to want enosis but what they did, to disregard the geopolitical interests in the area and go for it head on, was a criminal act which at the same time was doomed to fail.

The Turkish Cypriots were compelled to react and we would have done the same had the reverse hold true. I say that the fate of Cyprus was sealed early in the 50's when Makarios exerted unbelievable pressure on successive Greek governments to take the Cyprus issue to the UN. When Greece succumbed in 1954 to the cries of traitors (usual story) and took the Cyprus issue to the UN, the beginning of the end was in sight. Immediately Turkey became a key player and in 1955, when the armed struggle started with the natural exclusion of the Turkish Cypriots and the left hunted down for political and ideological reasons (hence, only about 30% of the total population of Cyprus was allowed into the trick) the outcome of this effort was already known and of course it could not have ended in a different way.

Anyone who foresaw (and many people spoke against the arm struggle) this outcome and tried to instil some sense into the political leadership of EOKA was immediately branded a traitor and the assassins took over, thus silencing the voices of reason that could have prevented the coming catastrophe.

In 1950 the undoing of the British Empire started and many former British colonies got their independence without a drop of blood shed. True the Brits were not just ready to grand independence to Cyprus and they did need a little push to accelerate the process of decolonisation. The door was already open and it needed just a little push to open broadly. This could have easily been done by a mass, popular struggle that involved all Cypriots, Greek, Turkish, Maronites, Armenians and Latins. Instead, we put our fate in the hands of a fanatical priest and a sick general who took an oath to fight for enosis till the last drop of their blood. The arm struggle was an irrational act which was doomed to fail but when the superpatriots speak rationality takes second seat and eventually we all cry over the ruins.

It now remains to be seen whether we have learned from our past mistakes and go for the feasible instead of the desirable that has haunted us since the beginning of our modern history.

[Kifeas]

One aspect of this whole sad saga keeps staring us in the face...
In 1950 there were 400,000 GCs and 100,000TCs give or take a few thousand other minorities....Yet the GCs totally ignored the feelings of the TCs and pushed ahead with their demand for ENOSIS....What did they think the TCs would do against such a terrible possibility (for them!)????

I am yet to read any attempt by any rightthinking member of this Forum addressing this issue...And please don't say "bad luck,majority rules"...
My point is those pushing for ENOSIS knew how the TCs would react...So how did they really hope to overcome the TC resistance??? Come on people,time to show some empathy for your TC compatriots...What would you do if you were in their shoes???? And put your hands on your hearts and tell me,was it not asking for real trouble for GCs to disregard the TC feelings on this...given the past 450 years of Cyprus history????

The truth on the above question is that the TC community and its whatever feelings or reactions, was totally ignored in this campaign. So high was the conviction among the GCs about the legitimacy and rightfulness of their struggle that they never thought the TC community would have considered disputing it -set aside dared to confront it. As a result, the possibility that complications in the course of the struggle due to TC reaction, were totally ignored, or better almost totally escaped their minds.

Furthermore, there are a few more things one should take into consideration. TC reaction -more so a violent one- did not come around until after the British themselves manipulated and motivated it, something the GC leadership of the time never anticipated, i.e. that the British would have gone that far. The GCs at the time only saw the TCs as basically a sleepy and passive minority, remnants of the previous occupier, with little or no moral ground to object the choices of the more active and richer majority. It is a fact that the TC leadership, at the time before the Eoka campaign, besides some sporadic and low profile objections, never raised their voice loud and strong enough, against the possibility of union with Greece, and even so, such voices were totally ignored and rather easily discredited by the GC leadership. One may call it miscalculation, over-ambition, or even arrogance, but that was the climate at the time.

Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration was the fact that it was a period of time soon after the end of the WWII, in which the Greeks fought together with the British against Nazism; a war in which some 25,000 GC joined the British army in order to help out, even on the disguised promise that once the war would have been over, their turn would come to meet their national aspirations. Naturally, one would have expected that the British would have seen and treated Greece and Greeks in general as an allied nation that they should have trusted and should have had no reason not to want to facilitate in their national aspirations, besides their economic needs at the time. This, in conjunction with the fact that Britain itself had in the past considered and even proposed union of Cyprus with Greece, the fact that Turkey had long before waved any rights or claims on Cyprus with the treaty of Lausanne, and the fact that post WWII period was characterised by a world-wide decolonisation campaign (the establishment of the UN and the universal declaration of human rights, including the right of peoples self-determination against colonial ruling;) had all contributed in convincing the GCs, not just about the absolute rightfulness and legitimacy of their demand, but also about its almost certain attainability without much difficulty.

[halil]

Bananiot ,
They thought they will get all the TC's at one night and no one can asked them any questiones ! simple as this to answer Birkibrisli .....
rest of it story .

It was on news here in north that they started investigate EOKA file in South . They are investigating 74 coup files,back to 64 and 67 conflict etc...etc ....to find out what was the function of the EOKA and EOKA_B.

how is going on the resaerch ?

[pappy_sydney]

miltiades said

Code: Select all

Paphitis said that " if the T/Cs had collaborated with EOKA" , how could they , since even the G/C Communists were barred from joining the struggle.

Miltiades as you probably know initially the turkish cypriots were passive about the EOKA struggle and it was only the british who for their own selfish interests planned to "divide and rule" Cyprus by forming Turkish Cypriot police who fought against EOKA and even everyday children who threw rocks against them.
Also Britain asked Turkey to get involved in Cyprus as part of this policy. The result was the "Cyprus is Turkish" party through Denktash and Kuchuk ( I believe they both were part of this group, correct me if I am wrong ) with orders from Ankara aimed to politicize the Turk Cypriots via provocations throughout the island.
An example is the infamous bomb that TMT placed in front of the Turkish Press office in Nicosia which they blamed on the Greek Cypriots amongst other incidents. This I believe was the first time that the Turk Cypriots got involved in the Cyprus problem. What followed closely was another provocation . the massacre of 8 Greek Cypriots near Kondemenos.
EOKA made it their point not to anger the Turkish community in Cyprus and they distributed leaflets to the Turkish Cypriot community to this effect.
The rest of course is history.......................

[Kifeas]

Bananiot ,
They thought they will get all the TC's at one night and no one can asked them any questiones ! simple as this to answer Birkibrisli .....
rest of it story .

It was on news here in north that they started investigate EOKA file in South . They are investigating 74 coup files,back to 64 and 67 conflict etc...etc ....to find out what was the function of the EOKA and EOKA_B.

how is going on the resaerch ?

Halil, why don't you spend your time to educate your self, starting from learning better English so that you will be able to read on the Cyprus issue outside the Turkish text books that aim only at brainwashing and fanaticising you; and instead you waste it here in the forum by throwing nonsensical, meaningless and empty slogans and clichés -besides cutting and pasting the Bayrak version of news on Cyprus?

[miltiades]

One aspect of this whole sad saga keeps staring us in the face...
In 1950 there were 400,000 GCs and 100,000TCs give or take a few thousand other minorities....Yet the GCs totally ignored the feelings of the TCs and pushed ahead with their demand for ENOSIS....What did they think the TCs would do against such a terrible possibility (for them!)????

I am yet to read any attempt by any rightthinking member of this Forum addressing this issue...And please don't say "bad luck,majority rules"...
My point is those pushing for ENOSIS knew how the TCs would react...So how did they really hope to overcome the TC resistance??? Come on people,time to show some empathy for your TC compatriots...What would you do if you were in their shoes???? And put your hands on your hearts and tell me,was it not asking for real trouble for GCs to disregard the TC feelings on this...given the past 450 years of Cyprus history????

The truth on the above question is that the TC community and its whatever feelings or reactions, was totally ignored in this campaign. So high was the conviction among the GCs about the legitimacy and rightfulness of their struggle that they never thought the TC community would have considered disputing it -set aside dared to confront it. As a result, the possibility that complications in the course of the struggle due to TC reaction, were totally ignored, or better almost totally escaped their minds.

Furthermore, there are a few more things one should take into consideration. TC reaction -more so a violent one- did not come around until after the British themselves manipulated and motivated it, something the GC leadership of the time never anticipated, i.e. that the British would have gone that far. The GCs at the time only saw the TCs as basically a sleepy and passive minority, remnants of the previous occupier, with little or no moral ground to object the choices of the more active and richer majority. It is a fact that the TC leadership, at the time before the Eoka campaign, besides some sporadic and low profile objections, never raised their voice loud and strong enough, against the possibility of union with Greece, and even so, such voices were totally ignored and rather easily discredited by the GC leadership. One may call it miscalculation, over-ambition, or even arrogance, but that was the climate at the time.

Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration was the fact that it was a period of time soon after the end of the WWII, in which the Greeks fought together with the British against Nazism; a war in which some 25,000 GC joined the British army in order to help out, even on the disguised promise that once the war would have been over, their turn would come to meet their national aspirations. Naturally, one would have expected that the British would have seen and treated Greece and Greeks in general as an allied nation that they should have trusted and should have had no reason not to want to facilitate in their national aspirations, besides their economic needs at the time. This, in conjunction with the fact that Britain itself had in the past considered and even proposed union of Cyprus with Greece, the fact that Turkey had long before waved any rights or claims on Cyprus with the treaty of Lausanne, and the fact that post WWII period was characterised by a world-wide decolonisation campaign (the establishment of the UN and the universal declaration of human rights, including the right of peoples self-determination against colonial ruling;) had all contributed in convincing the GCs, not just about the absolute rightfulness and legitimacy of their demand, but also about its almost certain attainability without much difficulty.

A precise analysis by Kifeas .