Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Speech by President Talat at the European Policy Centre in Brussels

"Thank you very much.

Thanks to the European Policy Centre for organising this event and inviting me to address to these valuable guests.

…We have a meeting tomorrow, which will mark the beginning of substantive negotiations. We already officially started full-fledged negotiations but we are going to take the Cyprus problem with all its dimensions as of tomorrow. Our commitment is to go until the end. We will possibly finalise and conclude an agreement on equal footing under the Good Offices Mission of the United Nations Secretary-General. Our target will be a comprehensive settlement; comprehensive settlement, meaning we will solve all the aspects of the Cyprus problem instead of reaching a piecemeal or step-by-step solution. Comprehensive solution has been the general understanding of the United Nations since the beginning of the Cyprus problem. More than 40 years of negotiations led the international community to ask for a comprehensive solution to the Cyprus problem, instead of a piecemeal solution. I wanted to underscore this important fact, because sometimes we hear arguments regarding a piecemeal, a step-by-step solution. That has never been an accepted procedure in the negotiations to solve the Cyprus problem. So, we are seeking a comprehensive settlement. Although we have different views on various aspects of the Cyprus problem, we believe that through negotiations, we will be able to solve and bridge the different views. This will be done with good will and flexibility. And I think we will be able to succeed to really bridge the different views and solve the problem. Four decades of negotiations caused a huge accumulation of principles, which have been named by the UN as ‘body of work.’ So we have a huge body of work to use for a solution. We are not going to start from scratch. If I wanted to name the turning points of this body of work, I can say it can be started by the 1977-79 High Level Agreements; then the famous Perez de Cuellar document of 1985-86; 1999 Boutros Boutros Ghali Set of Ideas; and very recently the Annan Plan, which was the most comprehensive and detailed plan comprised of around 9,000 pages. The Annan Plan envisaged a new state to function from day one as a normal state…. We think that solution should not take long because already the problem is a very long, very lengthy problem. It began in 1963, and it is a forty five years-old problem. Almost five decades. So we need to solve the problem as soon as possible. We believe that time is not for the benefit of a solution. So we believe that we should solve the problem as soon as possible.

Solution will be a partnership state, which was so, also in 1960. 1960 Agreements established a partnership state, where Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots were politically equal. At that time, there was no bi-zonality in the region, but political equality was present. So, I can say that 1960 Republic of Cyprus was actually a functional federation. It was not a unitary state, as it is sometimes argued... It was a functional federation.
Without approval of Turkish Cypriot State’s members of parliament… or the vice-president, nothing could be done. The other functions were almost exactly the same of a federation.

[b]So now, we are going to establish a new partnership in the same manner. But this time, based on bi-zonality, which is accepted by both sides. The agreement, of course, must reflect the fact that Cyprus is the common home of Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, and their relationship is not one of majority and minority, but of political equality- political equality of Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. This is the most crucial principle for Turkish Cypriots, because every kind of arrangement to safeguard the integrity and the preservation of the identity of Turkish Cypriots cannot be as important as political equality… It should include safeguards to ensure that neither side can claim jurisdiction over the other.

Also, as we agreed in our last meeting, the settlement should be put to separate simultaneous referenda in order to be approved.

As you know, a new special advisor has been appointed by the Secretary-General, Mr. Alexander Downer . We are working with him. By a constructive and positive approach, we will be able to solve the problem. This is our firm belief. We believe that the ramifications of a settlement in Cyprus will be far reaching. There will be sustainable peace and prosperity in the Eastern Mediterranean region and both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots will be able to equally enjoy the benefits of the EU membership.

At this point, I want to highlight the expected role of the European Union by Turkish Cypriots. First of all, as always said, EU should be ready to accommodate the terms of any prospective settlement to its own legal order. This is very crucial. The promise given by EU in this regard, caused the commencement of the negotiations…. And actually the EU, in many discussions, promised particularly to Turkish Cypriots to accommodate the terms of any prospective settlement to its own legal order. This is very crucial... We also need this agreement to be secure. And for this, Turkish Cypriots demand particularly that the deviations, if there will be any, become primary law in the European legal order. Hence, Turkish Cypriots are not very confident with the way, which is now decided by the EU - to make the agreement part of the European legal order, which is through Protocol Number 10. So we are discussing nowadays in Cyprus, between the two sides and also with the EU officials, to find ways to give enough safeguards to Turkish Cypriots for making this primary law in the European Union system. We also need technical assistance from the EU. Since we are going to be part of the European Union, as Turkish Cypriot State together with the Greek Cypriot State, - but they are already in the EU but we are not – we need the EU to give technical assistance to Turkish Cypriots to prepare a durable settlement in the European system. I said technical assistance on purpose because, of course, we cannot ask for political assistance, since the EU does not have as the UN’s a huge accumulated knowledge regarding the Cyprus problem. This is the number one reason. Secondly, the Greek Cypriot side is a member of EU, but Turkish Cypriots are out. So, the EU cannot be impartial in approaching the Cyprus problem. As a matter of fact, we face this in many occasions and we are facing this continuously. So we need technical assistance from the EU… Another important expectation from the EU is to encourage the Greek Cypriots for a solution, because actually there are very few incentives for Greek Cypriots to solve this problem. Very few incentives. Particularly by entering the EU, they lost their incentives... The perceived security threat of Greek Cypriots has been vanished by entering the EU. Actually, it was not maybe a real threat but it was perceived as a threat. Now, it is not there. They are a member of the EU, they are a member of the UN, they are a member of the international community. So, they do not need a solution as badly as Turkish Cypriots do. So, the EU should encourage the Greek Cypriot side for a solution, and actually guide them sometimes and show them the importance of a solution. … Ending this problem would contribute to the meaning of EU and European integration.

And a few words on the regulations, which were envisaged to be adopted by the EU. As you remember, in 2004, just after the referenda, European Council in an urgent manner adopted the Green Line Regulation before the Greek Cypriot side entered the EU formally…This has been enforced when Cyprus entered the EU formally. The second issue was the decision of the European Council to lift the isolation of Turkish Cypriots- and to this end, to adopt two regulations: the Financial Aid Regulation and Direct Trade Regulation. The Financial Aid Regulation, after a lot of problems and hurdles created by the Greek Cypriot side, has been adopted two years after of its presentation. It was submitted to the Council in 2004 July, and it was adopted in 2006 during the Austrian Presidency. The Direct Trade Regulation is still waiting, if not killed. It is in a dormant situation. The Financial Aid Regulation is not fully functional... The Greek Cypriot side creates a lot of problems, daily problems and the implementation is becoming very difficult everyday. And of course, this causes a lot of disappointment among Turkish Cypriots. The Green Line Regulation is also not fully functional, because of many reasons - maybe not directly because of its implementation; but for example if a Turkish Cypriot company decides to participate in the International Cyprus Fair on the Greek Cypriot side, that company cannot take its goods to the Greek Cypriot side as they are sold (in the north)… It is not possible, for example, to write on the cover that this is a produce of Turkish Cypriots, or write the address for example as Famagusta or Kyrenia or North Cyprus. These all are prohibited. So in the course of years, the participation of Turkish companies to the international fair dropped. he Greek Cypriot newspapers reject to publish advertisements from the North. It is not possible, for example, to publish an advertisement of a supermarket in the Greek Cypriot press. It is not officially prohibited, but they do not do it. But this is always possible in the Turkish Cypriot side. Turkish Cypriot press is so free that they publish the official declarations of the Greek Cypriot government… Maybe these are not directly preventing the flow of the goods but, they are important impediments for trade…. Turkish Cypriot trucks cannot enter the Greek Cypriot side. If a company intends to sell its goods to the Greek Cypriot side, Greek Cypriot trucks need to come to the North and carry the goods. Neither can the buses. Buses cannot go. For example, it is not possible for tourists to go to a hotel (in the north) from Larnaca Airport by Turkish Cypriot buses. Only Greek Cypriot buses can bring them to the Turkish Cypriot side…

Furthermore, the case of human trafficking, as you know, has become a great concern in Europe. This is also because of the reluctance of Greek Cypriot side to cooperate with Turkish Cypriot authorities. Why? Because they do not recognise Turkish Cypriot authorities, they do not accept that there is police in the North or they do not accept that there are courts in the North or they do not accept that there are security measures and forces. They refuse to cooperate. But the Turkish Cypriot side is decisively combatting human trafficking. I can give you many figures but lastly in 2008, and only in 2008, 540 immigrants were identified and deported. We have a mobile radar and now we are preparing a stable radar to monitor the Turkish Cypriot shores in order to avoid illegal entrance to the Turkish Cypriot soil. There are arguments by Greek Cypriot side that 95% of illegal immigrants come from the North. This is not a logical argument. Their shores are very well protected except for the Green Line? This is not logical. If they can protect their shores and only 5% is coming from their shores or maybe some percentage directly from airports and seaports, they should also be able to protect the Green Line. These are manipulations and unfortunately, they found their way in the EU reports. The Green Line Report of the commission is full of these distorted figures because they use the official figures of the Greek Cypriot government. But they are not true.

So, we expect to solve this diplomatic problem once and for all, by a comprehensive solution, so that we will not complain about these unimportant issues and we will have close cooperation and a durable partnership between the two peoples. This is our target, this is our aim, and we are determined to work on it. Thank you for your attention."

The man indeed talks nonsense, and if I were a TC I would even feel ashamed to have such a leader -not that anyone else of the remaining perspective TC leaders is any better.

Just take for example his claim about the RoC not being a Unitary State. The man talks nonsense, because the universally accepted definition of the term "unitary state" is one in which the entire country falls under the jurisdiction, control and sovereignty of one single constitution, one government and one legislature. In other words -as opposed to federations (or confederations) in which there are more than one constitutions, governments (a central and various other state or regional governments and legislative bodies, exercising various degrees and layers of powers and authority;) a unitary state has only one administration or government, one judicial body and one legislation, for all the spectrum of powers and for all the regions of the country.

The RoC, has only one constitution, one government, one legislature body and one judicial body, for the whole of the country; regardless of the fact that that a certain portion of each of these bodies would originate from one group of people, and another portion from another. They were still one body for each function, for the whole of the country, and this is the criterion for a unitary state. The man should first educate himself, and then try to talk about such concepts, otherwise he will end up improvising, just like in this and in any other case he opens his mouth.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu,

The buraucrats of the EU Commission will set him straight about who joins the EU and in what guise and that the rules are. They do it to Greece often, over things like rubbish tips, recognition of university degrees and other mundane but nevertheless important matters. They also have ways to enforce their decisions, painful things like fines and blocking of financing. Ouch!

But the question is Nikitas, is Talat expecting for the North to become a seperate EU member seperate from the RoC just by having a settlement with a BBF. Even at worse case scenario that the BBF is a Confederation as the AP was, how does Talat make the quantum leap in thinking, that the North will be entering the EU seperate from the RoC. The RoC is already in the EU as well as all her citizens, GC's and TC's alike. The only thing that's left to do, is to bring the North to the EU standards and it's done. It will be the RoC central government that will represent both the North and the South in the EU and the UN, and not each states representing themselves individually within the Federation, or have I gotten this wrong.?

Dont get you knickers in a twist the only thing on offer a BBf with political equality thats why they have been discussing how they will share power. he trying to emphasie that this deal is a partnership just as it was in 1960, but this time it will of 2 states. When you think it through if a 2 state solution is agree then one state would already be in and the other state will follow.

The RoC is the one who will represent both the states in the EU and the UN and not themselves individually. If that's not the case, then you are back to the old "Virgin Birth" concept as it was in the AP. You are not talking about a unified Cyprus, but a Two Separate Sovereign States under a loose Federation (Confederation) where either state can declare independence anytime they want with a referendum from the majority of those who live in them. I think the message was very loud and clear from the GC's in 2004 with an OXI on the same proposal. This time around, there wont even be an OXI if Talat pushes this as a settlement, because the talks will end in a deadlock, which will mean there will not be any referendums to vote on. Talat can spin this anyway he wants to be seen as the good guy while he tries to make the GC's to be the bad guys to the EU, but at the end of the day, the RoC will retain it's position in the EU and the UN, while the north receives scraps from the EU and a huge handout from Turkey, as well as a huge veto power over the head of Turkey for her EU dreams, held by the RoC. If Talat is not careful, it will be he, the TC's and Turkey will be the ones who will lose playing this deadly game of Russian Roulette. The GC's will just sit and wait until the next round of negotiation, sometimes in the future as they move forward economically and politically on the world's stage while the north remains in a "time capsule" from the past.

No Mr know it all there will be no other rounds, the world is sick of both sides rejectionist attitude, dont forget the GCs are walking on thin ice, they cannot afford another rejection nor backing out of the talks. Call it what you want but there will 2 states one north the other south under the name of a United Cyprus Republic, do I need to remind you that we have accepted a single international representation as long as we have an equal political balance as President Talat said this was the case in 1960 and will be the cae in any new agreement.

Your empty threats do not scare us one iota, we have no problems if either side backs out because if its seen as the GCs fault a gradual easing of isolation will occur and no refugees with get to return, the settlers will continue to arrive which after a few more years will no longer be reversable. If we back out then we continue to get closer to Turkey and return to our Turkish roots, if you have forgotten thats where your ancestors came from 400 odd years ago. I know you hate that fact but its true no point denying it, the GCs can then negotiate with Turkey just as they have always wanted.

When push comes to shove even VP will acknowledge that there has been a deliberate colonisation of the north by settlers.

How many Pontian Greeks do you have? No solution and the Turkification of the north will be permanent and there will be no turning back as the people you will find accross the table will not be Tcs with whom you share a history but people who dont give a shit about GCs or their demands for land return.

[Kikapu]

No Mr know it all there will be no other rounds, the world is sick of both sides rejectionist attitude, dont forget the GCs are walking on thin ice, they cannot afford another rejection nor backing out of the talks. Call it what you want but there will 2 states one north the other south under the name of a United Cyprus Republic, do I need to remind you that we have accepted a single international representation as long as we have an equal political balance as President Talat said this was the case in 1960 and will be the cae in any new agreement.

Your empty threats do not scare us one iota, we have no problems if either side backs out because if its seen as the GCs fault a gradual easing of isolation will occur and no refugees with get to return, the settlers will continue to arrive which after a few more years will no longer be reversable. If we back out then we continue to get closer to Turkey and return to our Turkish roots, if you have forgotten thats where your ancestors came from 400 odd years ago. I know you hate that fact but its true no point denying it, the GCs can then negotiate with Turkey just as they have always wanted.

No Mr know it all

That's the nicest compliment you have ever given me VP. It's about time you have appreciated in what I write.

I wish my father could say just as nice things about me also. He just calls me a smart ass.! :lol:



Are you not the one who are always telling us that the world does not give a shit about Cyprus, and now you are saying the world is sick of the Cyprus problem. So which is it.? Regardless of the settlement outcome, there is no way that the world, and as far as the "trnc" is concerned, "the world" means Europe, that will make the difference in their lives, are going to recognise the north. These well established countries built on principle of Democracy and supporter of freedom of movement and the protector of Human Rights which are the corner stone of the EU, are not going to violate their own "oath" just to allow the north to destroy all those principles by allowing a recognition.

What happened in Georgia with South Ossetia and Abkazia and how the West has condemned such moves, when declaring themselves independent, who by the way, can make the argument 1,000 times much more in their defence in wanting to break away from Georgia than the TC's can with the "trnc" from the RoC, and yet the West is not supporting them, so what makes you think that the north has any better chances than of those of South Ossetia and Abkazia, and to make an impossible dream of recognition becoming even worse by factor of infinity, Cyprus is in the EU, the same body that you are expecting them to violate their principles. Now, that's a dream I can write a very good novel on that will make an interesting read. But somehow, I think Talat may have the lead on me already in writing this wonderful novel about "recognition dream of the trnc" scripted out, and thinks he can do the same in real life.

I call it as exactly as it is, and that is, that the "trnc" is looking for ways to have a settlement under a disguised of a Unity, to officially partition the island at later date, since a non settlement status for the past 30+ years has not been able to achieve that. It is you who has not told us the truth of your intended objectives, but are very clear seen by those who are alert and are not in a state of comatose, as some people are, who are mostly in the GC community I may add. There are those in the TC community who may also be in the state of comatose believing that their leaders are working towards a long lasting peace and prosperity and are not realising of being duped by integrity challenged individuals who are playing Russian Roulette with their future, because they have already allowed themselves to be placed in a situation as being in "Animal Farm".

My roots re well defined, and that is, I come from Cyprus. 400 years is long enough for me for not wanting to go back to search for my ancestors from the past at a different location. As far as I'm concerned, whom ever my ancestors were before my roots were being planted in Cyprus, are nothing but just a "sperm donor", where as, Cyprus has been my True Parent who has raised me in her own special way which differs in many ways that those of Turkey or Mongolia. But VP, if you want to abandon your "parents" and go and search for your "sperm donor" instead to give yourself some kind of identity, then please go ahead. Don't forget however, that the trail of the "sperm donor" goes all the way to Mongolia and beyond. But it is interesting to know, that you want your ancestral trail to only go back as far as "Turkey" and not all the way back to Mongolia. Turkey to me is a foreign country, much like Spain, France, Italy and so on. What make Turkey special to me having lived and travelled there many times, is that I'm able to communicate with the people there in my own language, in Turkish along with theirs. Well, almost anyway, since they have an accent to us TC's, therefore I give them the "funny look" sometimes.

You VP, sounds like a lost person along with all those who refer to Turkey as their "motherland" and going back to your roots will be OK by you all. You could have all left already long time ago, if you all had such burning desires to be close to your "mothers bosom's milk", but chose to stay instead. You are all "movable" and can be transplanted if you all wanted, but not one inch of the island of Cyprus is movable to take with you to Turkey. But of course, you never really wanted to go and live in Turkey, instead you wanted the best of both worlds, to be in Europe and go back to your roots, but not all the way to Mongolia of course. As a middle ground, you have brought part of your recent roots to Cyprus instead, and now she is suffocating you with her "mother's bosom's milk" that you have yearned for all these years by dictating to you how you should live your life. This is just the beginning VP with much more worse to come if the TC's do not reach an reasonable settlement to protect their own interest rather than the interest of the "motherland", so I'm not the one who is making any empty threats about the future of the TC's in Cyprus without a Fair and Just settlement with the GC's, but rather the threats and dangers of an no settlement in what your "motherland" wants as well as a settlement that your "motherland" wants.

I can see what you meant when you keep saying that the both ends of the stick is shitty for you. That is only true if the TC's do not seek a settlement with the GC's to protect their own interest rightfully belonging to them as Cypriots, and not seek a settlement to protect the interest of your "motherland". If you are not afraid of what will happen to the TC's, then why don't you propose to take a smaller piece of Cyprus for a full recognition, with a wall built between the two communities, so that you can finally take off that silly "life jacket" you have been wearing sitting in your bath tub thinking you will drown without it, and finally learn how to swim and be on your own to get into the EU and manage your own affairs like any other country, with the help of your "motherland",
of course.!!

[zan]

Are you not the one who are always telling us that the world does not give a shit about Cyprus, and now you are saying the world is sick of the Cyprus problem

One and the same thing FFS


I will read the rest when I have nothing better to do....

[Kikapu]

Are you not the one who are always telling us that the world does not give a shit about Cyprus, and now you are saying the world is sick of the Cyprus problem

One and the same thing FFS


I will read the rest when I have nothing better to do....

No Zan, they are not ONE and the SAME. I thought your understanding of the written English language was much better than that. Had you read VP's post to which I was responding to with the above statements, then it would have cleared the message for you with what ever you were confused with.

Try seeing the whole picture and not just a piece of it.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

That's the nicest compliment you have ever given me VP. It's about time you have appreciated in what I write.

I wish my father could say just as nice things about me also. He just calls me a smart ass.!

Just shows how thick skinned you really are, another name for it is tunneled vision.

Are you not the one who are always telling us that the world does not give a shit about Cyprus, and now you are saying the world is sick of the Cyprus problem. So which is it.? Regardless of the settlement outcome, there is no way that the world, and as far as the "trnc" is concerned, "the world" means Europe, that will make the difference in their lives, are going to recognise the north. These well established countries built on principle of Democracy and supporter of freedom of movement and the protector of Human Rights which are the corner stone of the EU, are not going to violate their own "oath" just to allow the north to destroy all those principles by allowing a recognition.

The world is sick of the Cyprus problem thats why they dont give a shit, without a solution to commit to we can wait around until these "democratic" countries apply principles they subscribe to when it comes to TCs, how many OHIs do you think they can take before a relaxation of the isolation imposed on the TRNC. Many TCs would rather officially become part of Turkey than be forced into a situation where we are a minority in a GC state run by GCs.

What happened in Georgia with South Ossetia and Abkazia and how the West has condemned such moves, when declaring themselves independent, who by the way, can make the argument 1,000 times much more in their defence in wanting to break away from Georgia than the TC's can with the "trnc" from the RoC, and yet the West is not supporting them, so what makes you think that the north has any better chances than of those of South Ossetia and Abkazia, and to make an impossible dream of recognition becoming even worse by factor of infinity, Cyprus is in the EU, the same body that you are expecting them to violate their principles. Now, that's a dream I can write a very good novel on that will make an interesting read. But somehow, I think Talat may have the lead on me already in writing this wonderful novel about "recognition dream of the trnc" scripted out, and thinks he can do the same in real life.

If the talks hit an impasse those examples will be used to find an interim solution which GCs will detest as the EU cannot wait for GCs to find a solution indefinately, a second rejection of an effort to resolve this problem once and for will seal progress towards firstly a relaxation of isolation and maybe not in my life time but recognition will in the future be a real possibilty, a divded island in the EU is like a thorn that will turn cause member states great pain and embarassment.

I call it as exactly as it is, and that is, that the "trnc" is looking for ways to have a settlement under a disguised of a Unity, to officially partition the island at later date, since a non settlement status for the past 30+ years has not been able to achieve that. It is you who has not told us the truth of your intended objectives, but are very clear seen by those who are alert and are not in a state of comatose, as some people are, who are mostly in the GC community I may add. There are those in the TC community who may also be in the state of comatose believing that their leaders are working towards a long lasting peace and prosperity and are not realising of being duped by integrity challenged individuals who are playing Russian Roulette with their future, because they have already allowed themselves to be placed in a situation as being in "Animal Farm".

The tide has turned and TCs are considered as equal partners in any new deal, this may cause you great pain but there are 2 leaders at the negotiaitons and our leaders opinions and decisions are just as importnant as the other sides. We back our leader 100% and if he believes that a deal is not reachable then we are willing to continue on our path with Turkey to where ever this road may take us as what ever outcome is our future is it far better than being a minority in a GC state run by GCs.

You VP, sounds like a lost person along with all those who refer to Turkey as their "motherland" and going back to your roots will be OK by you all. You could have all left already long time ago, if you all had such burning desires to be close to your "mothers bosom's milk", but chose to stay instead. You are all "movable" and can be transplanted if you all wanted, but not one inch of the island of Cyprus is movable to take with you to Turkey. But of course, you never really wanted to go and live in Turkey, instead you wanted the best of both worlds, to be in Europe and go back to your roots, but not all the way to Mongolia of course. As a middle ground, you have brought part of your recent roots to Cyprus instead, and now she is suffocating you with her "mother's bosom's milk" that you have yearned for all these years by dictating to you how you should live your life. This is just the beginning VP with much more worse to come if the TC's do not reach an reasonable settlement to protect their own interest rather than the interest of the "motherland", so I'm not the one who is making any empty threats about the future of the TC's in Cyprus without a Fair and Just settlement with the GC's, but rather the threats and dangers of an no settlement in what your "motherland" wants as well as a settlement that your "motherland" wants.

I am at peace in my own skin and my roots be they Turk Mongolian or Arabic, you appear to be the one denying your roots, get a grip man we TCs have chosen our path and will continue along with Turkey, if a settlement is negotiated for a future with GCs that is better than what we have today then we will consider it and decide accordingly, never forget we to have the right to say Hayir.

I can see what you meant when you keep saying that the both ends of the stick is shitty for you. That is only true if the TC's do not seek a settlement with the GC's to protect their own interest rightfully belonging to them as Cypriots, and not seek a settlement to protect the interest of your "motherland". If you are not afraid of what will happen to the TC's, then why don't you propose to take a smaller piece of Cyprus for a full recognition, with a wall built between the two communities, so that you can finally take off that silly "life jacket" you have been wearing sitting in your bath tub thinking you will drown without it, and finally learn how to swim and be on your own to get into the EU and manage your own affairs like any other country, with the help of your "motherland",
of course.!!

You have probably forgotten but I am one that would accept less land for recognition but I dont believe this is what the majority of TCs want, they prefer recognition without giving any land. That life jacket is staying firmly on until a time I am 100% certain its safe to take off and not before, you dont expect anyone to take your scacastic comments on face value and trust you, do you?