Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Welcome to the forum Vuryek......


Thank you for your explanation but I must insist that you tell all here your entire views on Cyprus. You are obviously against Turkeys involvement in Cyprus but can you please tell us what your solution will be. It is only fair for all to know so we can cut out any confusion. Thank you in advance.

Dear friend, it is not possible to express “entire views” with 3 paragraphs. Every issue has both independent and related deep details thus if we are curious, our views are changing directly and dynamically related with our learning process. So I think it will be a more honest behaviour to think that we will learn and understand everybody’s views in time. Also, as you know, short and quick statements bring misunderstandings.
You want me to tell you “my solution”, but since solution is a not a kind of mathematical problem we have to accept its sociological, economical, socio-psychological, educational, political sides and you know each side is a kind of deep discussions. But let me explain how Turkey effects these issues with few examples.
If we want to talk about solution, first we have to talk about circumstances to get a provision of what we are capable of. Turkey’s “involvement” brings more criteria to discuss in Cyprus Problem? When we consider that Turkey is a completely separated country who thinks and moves only for itself, you can realize that it brings some unnatural additional criteria, which are not representing us, to our problem. Some of these criteria are completely blocked issues which are created to block solution. I think it is clear that we have less to “discuss” without Turkey’s “polite presence”.
Second, the authorities, whom the world named them as “Turkish Cypriot Leadership” and Turkey named them as “T.R.N.C.”, are neither a “government”, nor a “leadership” even not a simple authority. These servants only represent the orders of Turkey, which comes through Turkish Embassy. Not realistic? Why don’t you compare the speeches of Talat, Ferdi, which they made before their “presidency” and after their “presidency”? Anyone want me to post some examples? How can you explain the difference between Cypriotic speeches and Denktash like speeches of Talat’s and his fellows’s ? How can you explain the flexibility of their ideas which changes with “ideology” of Turkish Government? They become fascist with Grey Wolfs, religionist with AKP (which is present government), militarists with MGK (non changing military government of turkey) and you expect me to say that they are an independent leadership? Nobody can sit on that “TRNC chairs” if they will not follow orders of Turkey... Talat is not representing Cypriots, he is even not representing himself. Once Talat said “Because of the (fascism of) Greek Cypriots, I start to act like Denktash!” Was he talking about our Greek Cypriots who elected Christofias , instead of Papadapulos (sorry for spelling) or was he talking about another parallel world? What a paradox.
If I am wrong then please inform me about why have they brought Turkey’s education system? Why are they still building mosques to everywhere? Why are they trying to bring fanatic religion education to occupied area by both legal and illegal ways? Why have they brought their Turkey’s nationalist trade unions to occupied area? Why have they give permission to destroy ancient ruins, historical places to build up hotels of Turkish developers? Why population of settlers are more than 2 times of Cypriots? (Once Talat said “If we count all military, settlers “our” population can be approximately five hundred thousand”) Why approximately %40 of North Cyprus is military area? Why “Turkish Cypriot courts” cannot touch the settlers? Why every technical committee and working group includes at least 2 nationalist and 1broucrat? Who put them there? Who is paying for the economy of that “TRNC” thing (Once Ferdi Sabit Soyer said that Turkey is paying 500 million YTL for every year)? ... as you know we cannot list all of them today. We call assimilation to this process, and will bring integration.
These circumstances are a clear provision of permanent problem and they can be disappear with “un-involvement” of Turkey and there is no doubt that details and identification of our problem can change without occupation.

Turkey is not occupying Cyprus to save or protect Turkish Cypriots. Turkey is occupying Cyprus only for geopolitics. Everybody understood that schools history books were completely lie, which says “Turkey saved us from monsters and vampires which need to feed with Turks” (Not real? Read the book of Vehbi Zeki Serter). Both books of Makarios Drushotis and Mehmet Ali Tremesheli are high quality proof of what Turkey did between 1955-1974. Many times Turkish organisations killed Turkish Cypriots and blame Greek Cypriots. Turkish Army killed both GC, and TC and we are still talking about involvement of Turkey!
Turkey is not a kind of unresistable force. If we really want, we can send them back. We just need to get our voice higher to make International Arena to hear that even TC don’t want Turkey in Cyprus. We can handle by ourselves.

Could you now explain me why we need Turkey for solution?


And no, ROC is not an occupier. I want to remind you that TC have left ROC parliament and have built a new “"!!??government!!??" under the "!!??protection!!??" of Turkey”.

All very good but you have said nothing that reveals where you stand with regards to the type of solution, you only advocate we rid ourselves of our life jacket and hope for the best.

Without Turkeys financial support and the continuation of isolation how will you solve the economic chaos we would quickly find ourselves in?

Your opinions so far appear to be naive at best and very much up with the utopians who think as long as we all call ourselves Cypriots everything else will fall in place.

Thanks VP for your accurate views and for pointing this post out to me...I missed it with my exchanges with Miltiades.......Both Vuryek and Miltiades are refusing to state their positions on this issue. We need a precise answer from both of you please gentlemen.....

My position and that of our new friend are on par , we are both Cypriots who want to be free from foreign domination. We both believe in the right of the indigenous T/C Cypriots to share our nation as equal Cypriots whose allegiance is to our nation of Cyprus , unlike the two of you who are committed to the absorption of a part of Cyprus by Turkey and the permanent extinction of the Turkish Cypriot.
Our new friend has ruffled your feathers , he lives in the occupied part and just as the four youngsters recently in the news he wants his nation to be rid of the occupying troops.
For his sake I hope he is careful and does not insult "Turkishness " we need more true Cypriot voices and less Grey Wolves shrieks.

All I can say Miltiades is that you are easily fooled.

Zan , you are twisting and turning because a T/C has dared expose the myth that the T/Cs want Turkey to remain in Cyprus, in fact it is clear that they want nothing of the sort . They want to get rid of the occupation army , they want it to "sod off" as per the graffiti writers.
He or she , has driven a wedge between your own aspirations and those of the T/Cs at large. You belong to the old guard of Denktash and his imported Grey Wolves . Your motherland isn't theirs clearly .
I implore you once again to abandon my homeland and that of the majority of the indigenous T/Cs , G/Cs Maronites and Armenians and find happiness in your motherland . Our Cyprus belongs to us the Cypriots , get it through your head mate !

I am so glad that it takes one person on the Forum and raise your glass in victory. Cheers mate.......When they all come over to the "RoC" way of thinking then I will buy you a bottle of Raki and you can go to town then. Until then mate...Your spooks are not really bothering me at all. We are not about to give up our island to the "RoC" no matter which little trick you try to play. Your CYprus belongs to Greeks...My Cyprius belongs to CYpriots who respect the original Zurich agreement or another deal along UN lines. Be happy Miltiades.

[miltiades]

VP , He is expecting you to claim your rightful position next to the G/Cs . He wants participation of all in solving our problem and reaching a viable solution.You and Zan are constantly referring to the past digging up dirt in order to prove to your selves that we can not live together. You are on record for saying that the Southern part of Cyprus is a foreign country to you just like Spain , Italy or any other nation.You were wrong then , you also on numerous occasions referred to me as a voice on its own, it looks as if you were abysmally wrong and that my views on the T/Cs were more in line with the reality on the ground. The flood gates will soon open and the voices of reason will be heard , graffiti will appear again and again and the T/Cs will demand freedom .

[zan]

All very good but you have said nothing that reveals where you stand with regards to the type of solution, you only advocate we rid ourselves of our life jacket and hope for the best.

Without Turkeys financial support and the continuation of isolation how will you solve the economic chaos we would quickly find ourselves in?

Your opinions so far appear to be naive at best and very much up with the utopians who think as long as we all call ourselves Cypriots everything else will fall in place.

Financial support? You mean "to TRNC Economy"? That is real utopia. You can easily find answers to your every question but you need to want it first.

Objectively, a real economy and monetary politics defined with some descriptive rules and conditions. Without there rules and conditions, your system cannot be defined as an economy. Let me explain in more simple way. In North Cyprus we only consume! no real production, no real money! You can easily check financial tables of "TRNC" from web site of "devlet planlama". Statistically there is "518 cars for 1000 person" (it was statistics of 2006 I think but you can find it) which means at least one car for two person. This is a simple example of a bizarre wealth of a small population. What production we have to gain this kind of wealth where nearly %80 of population is "government officer". No, this is not a real economy and this is not a financial support. Truly, it is kind of feeding. Feeding up a to create a selfish population who doesn’t care about the future of their country. Turkey is feeding up Turkish Cypriots too keep them silent. There is no "TRNC" even for Turkey. Our future with Turkey can only be same with "Hatay" which was integrated, which means exactly TAXIM.

You want reality? We have a living government with a real economy at South. It may be have wounds, it may be have political and structural damages, maybe it is sick but ROC is our government. We left it! and we have a great share, part in history about treason to our government and our people. (You believe that all TC will go to heaven because of 1963? We are not angels.) Thus, it is also one of our most important liabilities to unite our country and turn back to our government to build up everything again with other Cypriots.

ROC has economy, ROC has production, ROC has its own money as other real governments. And we could start everything again from beginning. If we want to learn “how to work”, “how to gain our lives”, “how to join to a real work power”, “how to being a part of a real society, economy, production” then we gave to give back what is not ours. And we have to give back what we gain without working to train ourselves, as a normal human being, from beginning.

Clear? or you want a lazy “TRNC” dream until its last moments.

Do you think that we can correct all that with recognition or a two state system Vuryek or not......

Its a bit complex question which is related with many topics. Two state system can be hopeful transition period for to desing and build a very good system. But that is a fact, we cannot build any healty system under the influence of other countries because they will certainly try to shape this "new formation" according to their profits.

But the "RoC" has.......How can that be if you are right....We haven't because of isolation and embargoes. Simple really. Nothing complex about it.

[miltiades]

All very good but you have said nothing that reveals where you stand with regards to the type of solution, you only advocate we rid ourselves of our life jacket and hope for the best.

Without Turkeys financial support and the continuation of isolation how will you solve the economic chaos we would quickly find ourselves in?

Your opinions so far appear to be naive at best and very much up with the utopians who think as long as we all call ourselves Cypriots everything else will fall in place.

Financial support? You mean "to TRNC Economy"? That is real utopia. You can easily find answers to your every question but you need to want it first.

Objectively, a real economy and monetary politics defined with some descriptive rules and conditions. Without there rules and conditions, your system cannot be defined as an economy. Let me explain in more simple way. In North Cyprus we only consume! no real production, no real money! You can easily check financial tables of "TRNC" from web site of "devlet planlama". Statistically there is "518 cars for 1000 person" (it was statistics of 2006 I think but you can find it) which means at least one car for two person. This is a simple example of a bizarre wealth of a small population. What production we have to gain this kind of wealth where nearly %80 of population is "government officer". No, this is not a real economy and this is not a financial support. Truly, it is kind of feeding. Feeding up a to create a selfish population who doesn’t care about the future of their country. Turkey is feeding up Turkish Cypriots too keep them silent. There is no "TRNC" even for Turkey. Our future with Turkey can only be same with "Hatay" which was integrated, which means exactly TAXIM.

You want reality? We have a living government with a real economy at South. It may be have wounds, it may be have political and structural damages, maybe it is sick but ROC is our government. We left it! and we have a great share, part in history about treason to our government and our people. (You believe that all TC will go to heaven because of 1963? We are not angels.) Thus, it is also one of our most important liabilities to unite our country and turn back to our government to build up everything again with other Cypriots.

ROC has economy, ROC has production, ROC has its own money as other real governments. And we could start everything again from beginning. If we want to learn “how to work”, “how to gain our lives”, “how to join to a real work power”, “how to being a part of a real society, economy, production” then we gave to give back what is not ours. And we have to give back what we gain without working to train ourselves, as a normal human being, from beginning.

Clear? or you want a lazy “TRNC” dream until its last moments.

Do you think that we can correct all that with recognition or a two state system Vuryek or not......

Its a bit complex question which is related with many topics. Two state system can be hopeful transition period for to desing and build a very good system. But that is a fact, we cannot build any healty system under the influence of other countries because they will certainly try to shape this "new formation" according to their profits.

But the "RoC" has.......How can that be if you are right....We haven't because of isolation and embargoes. Simple really. Nothing complex about it.

You still dont get it Zan do you . The part that you call the "TRNC" is the creation of the occupying foreign force which is in absolute control of its creation on a day to day basis. The game has been lost , reality is fast approaching that CYPRUS is one nation and one people .
And here is another reality as per our new friend: "ROC has economy, ROC has production, ROC has its own money as other real governments " DO YOU GET THIS ZAN ??

[zan]

VP , He is expecting you to claim your rightful position next to the G/Cs . He wants participation of all in solving our problem and reaching a viable solution.You and Zan are constantly referring to the past digging up dirt in order to prove to your selves that we can not live together. You are on record for saying that the Southern part of Cyprus is a foreign country to you just like Spain , Italy or any other nation.You were wrong then , you also on numerous occasions referred to me as a voice on its own, it looks as if you were abysmally wrong and that my views on the T/Cs were more in line with the reality on the ground. The flood gates will soon open and the voices of reason will be heard , graffiti will appear again and again and the T/Cs will demand freedom .

Now if only that were to happen on your side and we could meet in the middle...what a day that would be...... But don't get too existed about one little event...We are not going to hand the island over to you on a plate...

[zan]

All very good but you have said nothing that reveals where you stand with regards to the type of solution, you only advocate we rid ourselves of our life jacket and hope for the best.

Without Turkeys financial support and the continuation of isolation how will you solve the economic chaos we would quickly find ourselves in?

Your opinions so far appear to be naive at best and very much up with the utopians who think as long as we all call ourselves Cypriots everything else will fall in place.

Financial support? You mean "to TRNC Economy"? That is real utopia. You can easily find answers to your every question but you need to want it first.

Objectively, a real economy and monetary politics defined with some descriptive rules and conditions. Without there rules and conditions, your system cannot be defined as an economy. Let me explain in more simple way. In North Cyprus we only consume! no real production, no real money! You can easily check financial tables of "TRNC" from web site of "devlet planlama". Statistically there is "518 cars for 1000 person" (it was statistics of 2006 I think but you can find it) which means at least one car for two person. This is a simple example of a bizarre wealth of a small population. What production we have to gain this kind of wealth where nearly %80 of population is "government officer". No, this is not a real economy and this is not a financial support. Truly, it is kind of feeding. Feeding up a to create a selfish population who doesn’t care about the future of their country. Turkey is feeding up Turkish Cypriots too keep them silent. There is no "TRNC" even for Turkey. Our future with Turkey can only be same with "Hatay" which was integrated, which means exactly TAXIM.

You want reality? We have a living government with a real economy at South. It may be have wounds, it may be have political and structural damages, maybe it is sick but ROC is our government. We left it! and we have a great share, part in history about treason to our government and our people. (You believe that all TC will go to heaven because of 1963? We are not angels.) Thus, it is also one of our most important liabilities to unite our country and turn back to our government to build up everything again with other Cypriots.

ROC has economy, ROC has production, ROC has its own money as other real governments. And we could start everything again from beginning. If we want to learn “how to work”, “how to gain our lives”, “how to join to a real work power”, “how to being a part of a real society, economy, production” then we gave to give back what is not ours. And we have to give back what we gain without working to train ourselves, as a normal human being, from beginning.

Clear? or you want a lazy “TRNC” dream until its last moments.

Do you think that we can correct all that with recognition or a two state system Vuryek or not......

Its a bit complex question which is related with many topics. Two state system can be hopeful transition period for to desing and build a very good system. But that is a fact, we cannot build any healty system under the influence of other countries because they will certainly try to shape this "new formation" according to their profits.

But the "RoC" has.......How can that be if you are right....We haven't because of isolation and embargoes. Simple really. Nothing complex about it.

You still dont get it Zan do you . The part that you call the "TRNC" is the creation of the occupying foreign force which is in absolute control of its creation on a day to day basis. The game has been lost , reality is fast approaching that CYPRUS is one nation and one people .
And here is another reality as per our new friend: "ROC has economy, ROC has production, ROC has its own money as other real governments " DO YOU GET THIS ZAN ??

The "RoC" has blood on it's hands and the remnants of the Zurich agreement on the floor......That is not my Cyprus but yours and Greeces.

[Viewpoint]

Miltiades just like you are the minority in the south, Vuryek is the minority in the north, he or she is obviously very young and does not understand the dangers involved with exposing themselves to a degree of being left to the mercy of a hostile GC mentality that will reduce him or her to minority status in their own country.

[Viewpoint]

VP , He is expecting you to claim your rightful position next to the G/Cs . He wants participation of all in solving our problem and reaching a viable solution.You and Zan are constantly referring to the past digging up dirt in order to prove to your selves that we can not live together. You are on record for saying that the Southern part of Cyprus is a foreign country to you just like Spain , Italy or any other nation.You were wrong then , you also on numerous occasions referred to me as a voice on its own, it looks as if you were abysmally wrong and that my views on the T/Cs were more in line with the reality on the ground. The flood gates will soon open and the voices of reason will be heard , graffiti will appear again and again and the T/Cs will demand freedom .

We refer to the past so as not make the same mistakes and ensure that our fears and concerns are addressed and not pushed to one side.
There is no such offer to take our rightful place next to GCs as you well know, there have been negotiations and even now they are still trying to resolve the situation but never has the GCs called for us to return to the 1960 agreements becuase that is not what they want they have recognition and the benefits that go with it, why do you think they would want to share that? all they want is land not TCs, as soon as we let down our guard they will take control of the whole island and reduce us to a minority status with no safeguards or guarantees. You want to push us into this position and leave us at the mercy of a hostile and revenge seeking GC people, how will you feel when the first bomb goes off and innocent people die in the name of we are all Cypriots? We need a clear cut solution with plenty of safeguards, otherwise any new partnership is doomed to fail just like the old one, both sides need to udnerstand that they have to firstly compromise and them stick to a new agreement knowing full well the penalities if they should not.

[zan]

Miltiades just like you are the minority in the south, Vuryek is the minority in the north, he or she is obviously very young and does not understand the dangers involved with exposing themselves to a degree of being left to the mercy of a hostile GC mentality that will reduce him or her to minority status in their own country.

I would be happy if Vuryek would answer just one question.

[Vuryek]

Vuryek

Financial support? You mean "to TRNC Economy"? That is real utopia. You can easily find answers to your every question but you need to want it first.

Objectively, a real economy and monetary politics defined with some descriptive rules and conditions. Without there rules and conditions, your system cannot be defined as an economy. Let me explain in more simple way. In North Cyprus we only consume! no real production, no real money! You can easily check financial tables of "TRNC" from web site of "devlet planlama". Statistically there is "518 cars for 1000 person" (it was statistics of 2006 I think but you can find it) which means at least one car for two person. This is a simple example of a bizarre wealth of a small population. What production we have to gain this kind of wealth where nearly %80 of population is "government officer". No, this is not a real economy and this is not a financial support. Truly, it is kind of feeding. Feeding up a to create a selfish population who doesn’t care about the future of their country. Turkey is feeding up Turkish Cypriots too keep them silent. There is no "TRNC" even for Turkey. Our future with Turkey can only be same with "Hatay" which was integrated, which means exactly TAXIM.

Real or not do we receive support from Turkey?

Its a simple question yet you talk in riddles to make excuses, how do you propose we turn our backs on Turkey and refuse this money? do you think the GCs economy will fill the void? wont you dependent on handouts? from a hostile and reluctant GC people? How will you guarantee that isolation will be lifted and how will not expose yourself to GC dominance and discrimination?

What is the alternative to Turkey? we are unable to stand our own 2 feet due to GC persistence of isoalation and you expect us to abandone our only ally and wait for GCs to open our path so that we may develop and support ourselves. Im sorry but you are being very naive and only jump out of the fat into the fire. Without concrete and clear undertakings from GCs TCs will not move one inch.

It was exact answer of your question. It was not riddles. Its because you dont want to read or understand. As I said, it is not a kind of support. It is just "feeding" the sheep until the butchery time. I am not naive, you are uneducated.

You talked so emotional about Turkey. So emotional as money as you said. Turkey can destroy your culture, your education, your humanity, your social structure, your whole country, and it is not your problem if you still get money! Believe me you cannot be a Cypriot more than this. Same as Talat and Ferdi.

If you want to learn how to stand on your feet, you have to learn how to work. If you are a "TRNC" officer dont talk even about that.

GC are hostile for you, and for other "money emotionals". Nobody said any unition can be take place in two days and we will live happyly ever after. We will allways struggle against uneducated people. You took all I said as 2 days process its because of you are naive. An uneducated people is not only speciality of North Cyprus, it is speciality of whole world.

Why GC are hostile? They are hostile because Denktash said? They are hostile because Turkey said? They are hostile because some idiots write a mytological books about Cyprus history? They are hostile because they have a gene that says "kill all Turks" in their biological structure? If they are hostile what areyou doing here? killing them by talking?

I had many bad experiences with GC, but it doest change my ideas because all population is not what I experienced.

Wake up, Turkey is not an ally, it will just continue to buy (support) you until you will dissapear. By the way how old are you?