Cyprus-Forum.com

[utu]

Part of my thesis entails historical parallels that could apply to the Cyprus problem. One of these - the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia in 1938-1939 - came to my attention. For those of you not historically inclined to that period, the Sudeten Germans (a large ethnic minority) living in Western Czechoslovakia were used as a pretext for Nazi Germany to force the Sudetenland's cession to the Third Reich, and later on becoming a springboard to take over the rest of the Czechoslovak state. After WW2 ended, the Czech government got the allies' blessings to expel the Sudeten Germans from the Sudetenland, on the grounds that this group could never again be 'a knife at the throat of Czechoslovakia'.

Looking at this precedent, it is not overly difficult to see something of a comparison between Nazi Germany and the Sudetenland vis-a-vis Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots. Both examples have the justification of going in on the pretext of 'protecting their brethern', and both ended up going further than that - in the latter case, the Turkish military taking over of a third of Cyprus after the initial incursion helped cause the attempted Sampson coup to collapse. I want to make it clear though that I don't want to take the comparison further than that for obvious reasons as the local situations in Sudetenland 1938 and Cyprus 1934 are not mirror images. I'm using the comparison solely for the purpose of generalization of ethnic minority supported by 'mother country'.

Getting back to the comparison, if the Sudetenland precedent is applied all the way, then we are faced with a prospect of a re-unified Cyprus under Greek majority rule expelling all Turkish Cypriots on the same grounds that the Czechs did to the Sudeten Germans. (By the way, I'm not talking about settlers here. Those brought in by Turkey have no ligitimate right to reside on the islands and must leave), but given the bitterness of partition, would the Greek Cypriots - if regaining control of the entire island - have the entire Turkish Cypriot presence removed on the grounds of 'ridding the knife at their throats'? How attractive would this scenario be to the Greek Cypriot folk on this forum should control of the entire island be immediately regained? To the Turkish Cypriot folk, do you think that the Greek Cypriots would do such a thing if the northern administration and the Turkish Forces at this moment ceased to exist?

I would like to get some sound arguments for the forum folk that both support and debunk this historical precedent to help my work on this part of the thesis (135 pages and counting thus far). Is such drastic action like what happened in Sudetenland an inevitable conclusion for Cyprus, or if some form of co-habitation could still prevail in a unitary state after such a long and bitter partition? I want to eliminate federalism or confederalism as that comes under another section of the thesis. In short: Is a unitary state in Cyprus still possible now, and how would it prevail?

[zan]

You have heard it hear many times from the likes of Miltiades utu......It's either the "RoC" way or the highway. They want to claim the title of Cypriot and deport anyone that does not agree. That would be the TCs then. Take Cyprus by force and then make it up as they go along. Maybe even another round of "population exchanges" as the GCs make it harder and harder for TCs to be TCs and help these people of the island as they did with me and my family. & of us "Escaped from Cyprus at a time when visas were not permitted. So the answer is by hook or by crook.

[miltiades]

You have heard it hear many times from the likes of Miltiades utu......It's either the "RoC" way or the highway. They want to claim the title of Cypriot and deport anyone that does not agree. That would be the TCs then. Take Cyprus by force and then make it up as they go along. Maybe even another round of "population exchanges" as the GCs make it harder and harder for TCs to be TCs and help these people of the island as they did with me and my family. & of us "Escaped from Cyprus at a time when visas were not permitted. So the answer is by hook or by crook.

I have on many occasions stated my dream to see a Turkish Cypriot as the President of a United Cyprus , I elaborated by adding that provided the T/C President presides over all Cypriots and his allegiance is to Cyprus and all of its people ( Gordon Brown is Scottish ) then may that day come during my lifetime.
The fanatics , Zan in particular , who has called me an assassin , are the reason why so much bitterness still exists amongst our people because people like him have as their motherland Turkey or Greece. They are the parasites on this island they are the impostors on this island they are the divisionist and the hate mongers .
I , on the hand , support the internationally recognized ROC , this is how the UN and the EU see the RoC AS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT OF THE ROC .
Is he expecting me to recognise an occupied part of Cyprus , again this is how the International community sees the "trnc" , with 35 thousand foreign occupying troops and some 150 or so thousand mountain people that the T/Cs at large want nothing to do with them but send them back to Zans new modern world ?
The extremists on both sides have attacked me many many times , T/Cs and G/Cs , I have been relentlessly consistent with my views and my actions which continue to this day. I visit the North with my head held high , I stand by my principles and I call the T/C people my people just as I call all other Cypriot loving people. The fanatics fucked it in the late 50s early 60s , the true Cypriots ain't going to lay down and take it this time round because we have the EU , the UN and all of the responsible international community on our side.
I do not preach hatred as Zan does , I do not dig for dirt to show that our people can not live together , I attack Turkey and I attack Greece , for we the Cypriot people are non for sale to either.
LONG LIVE CYPRUS AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION ENMBRACING ALL CYPRIOTS.
Fuck the bloody flags of foreign bloody nations along with their national bloody anthems.
A Cypriot HAS SPOKEN !

[zan]

You have heard it hear many times from the likes of Miltiades utu......It's either the "RoC" way or the highway. They want to claim the title of Cypriot and deport anyone that does not agree. That would be the TCs then. Take Cyprus by force and then make it up as they go along. Maybe even another round of "population exchanges" as the GCs make it harder and harder for TCs to be TCs and help these people of the island as they did with me and my family. & of us "Escaped from Cyprus at a time when visas were not permitted. So the answer is by hook or by crook.

I have on many occasions stated my dream to see a Turkish Cypriot as the President of a United Cyprus , I elaborated by adding that provided the T/C President presides over all Cypriots and his allegiance is to Cyprus and all of its people ( Gordon Brown is Scottish ) then may that day come during my lifetime.
The fanatics , Zan in particular , who has called me an assassin , are the reason why so much bitterness still exists amongst our people because people like him have as their motherland Turkey or Greece. They are the parasites on this island they are the impostors on this island they are the divisionist and the hate mongers .
I , on the hand , support the internationally recognized ROC , this is how the UN and the EU see the RoC AS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT OF THE ROC .
Is he expecting me to recognise an occupied part of Cyprus , again this is how the International community sees the "trnc" , with 35 thousand foreign occupying troops and some 150 or so thousand mountain people that the T/Cs at large want nothing to do with them but send them back to Zans new modern world ?
The extremists on both sides have attacked me many many times , T/Cs and G/Cs , I have been relentlessly consistent with my views and my actions which continue to this day. I visit the North with my head held high , I stand by my principles and I call the T/C people my people just as I call all other Cypriot loving people. The fanatics fucked it in the late 50s early 60s , the true Cypriots ain't going to lay down and take it this time round because we have the EU , the UN and all of the responsible international community on our side.
I do not preach hatred as Zan does , I do not dig for dirt to show that our people can not live together , I attack Turkey and I attack Greece , for we the Cypriot people are non for sale to either.
LONG LIVE CYPRUS AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION ENMBRACING ALL CYPRIOTS.
Fuck the bloody flags of foreign bloody nations along with their national bloody anthems.
A Cypriot HAS SPOKEN !

You are either an assassin or a completer fool to think the way you do Miltiades and I chose assassin because I didn't want to be rude


As to the rest of your rhetoric.......See what I mean utu.

[DT.]

You have heard it hear many times from the likes of Miltiades utu......It's either the "RoC" way or the highway. They want to claim the title of Cypriot and deport anyone that does not agree. That would be the TCs then. Take Cyprus by force and then make it up as they go along. Maybe even another round of "population exchanges" as the GCs make it harder and harder for TCs to be TCs and help these people of the island as they did with me and my family. & of us "Escaped from Cyprus at a time when visas were not permitted. So the answer is by hook or by crook.

I have on many occasions stated my dream to see a Turkish Cypriot as the President of a United Cyprus , I elaborated by adding that provided the T/C President presides over all Cypriots and his allegiance is to Cyprus and all of its people ( Gordon Brown is Scottish ) then may that day come during my lifetime.
The fanatics , Zan in particular , who has called me an assassin , are the reason why so much bitterness still exists amongst our people because people like him have as their motherland Turkey or Greece. They are the parasites on this island they are the impostors on this island they are the divisionist and the hate mongers .
I , on the hand , support the internationally recognized ROC , this is how the UN and the EU see the RoC AS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT OF THE ROC .
Is he expecting me to recognise an occupied part of Cyprus , again this is how the International community sees the "trnc" , with 35 thousand foreign occupying troops and some 150 or so thousand mountain people that the T/Cs at large want nothing to do with them but send them back to Zans new modern world ?
The extremists on both sides have attacked me many many times , T/Cs and G/Cs , I have been relentlessly consistent with my views and my actions which continue to this day. I visit the North with my head held high , I stand by my principles and I call the T/C people my people just as I call all other Cypriot loving people. The fanatics fucked it in the late 50s early 60s , the true Cypriots ain't going to lay down and take it this time round because we have the EU , the UN and all of the responsible international community on our side.
I do not preach hatred as Zan does , I do not dig for dirt to show that our people can not live together , I attack Turkey and I attack Greece , for we the Cypriot people are non for sale to either.
LONG LIVE CYPRUS AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION ENMBRACING ALL CYPRIOTS.
Fuck the bloody flags of foreign bloody nations along with their national bloody anthems.
A Cypriot HAS SPOKEN !

You are either an assassin or a completer fool to think the way you do Miltiades and I chose assassin because I didn't want to be rude


As to the rest of your rhetoric.......See what I mean utu.

WHy is he a fool or an assasin Zan? What did he just say that warrants that?

[zan]

You have heard it hear many times from the likes of Miltiades utu......It's either the "RoC" way or the highway. They want to claim the title of Cypriot and deport anyone that does not agree. That would be the TCs then. Take Cyprus by force and then make it up as they go along. Maybe even another round of "population exchanges" as the GCs make it harder and harder for TCs to be TCs and help these people of the island as they did with me and my family. & of us "Escaped from Cyprus at a time when visas were not permitted. So the answer is by hook or by crook.

I have on many occasions stated my dream to see a Turkish Cypriot as the President of a United Cyprus , I elaborated by adding that provided the T/C President presides over all Cypriots and his allegiance is to Cyprus and all of its people ( Gordon Brown is Scottish ) then may that day come during my lifetime.
The fanatics , Zan in particular , who has called me an assassin , are the reason why so much bitterness still exists amongst our people because people like him have as their motherland Turkey or Greece. They are the parasites on this island they are the impostors on this island they are the divisionist and the hate mongers .
I , on the hand , support the internationally recognized ROC , this is how the UN and the EU see the RoC AS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT OF THE ROC .
Is he expecting me to recognise an occupied part of Cyprus , again this is how the International community sees the "trnc" , with 35 thousand foreign occupying troops and some 150 or so thousand mountain people that the T/Cs at large want nothing to do with them but send them back to Zans new modern world ?
The extremists on both sides have attacked me many many times , T/Cs and G/Cs , I have been relentlessly consistent with my views and my actions which continue to this day. I visit the North with my head held high , I stand by my principles and I call the T/C people my people just as I call all other Cypriot loving people. The fanatics fucked it in the late 50s early 60s , the true Cypriots ain't going to lay down and take it this time round because we have the EU , the UN and all of the responsible international community on our side.
I do not preach hatred as Zan does , I do not dig for dirt to show that our people can not live together , I attack Turkey and I attack Greece , for we the Cypriot people are non for sale to either.
LONG LIVE CYPRUS AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION ENMBRACING ALL CYPRIOTS.
Fuck the bloody flags of foreign bloody nations along with their national bloody anthems.
A Cypriot HAS SPOKEN !

You are either an assassin or a completer fool to think the way you do Miltiades and I chose assassin because I didn't want to be rude


As to the rest of your rhetoric.......See what I mean utu.

WHy is he a fool or an assasin Zan? What did he just say that warrants that?

If he thinks we can survive in Cyprus without our rights and guarantees in place then either he is a fool or he knows what is coming and is in favour of it......

[Tim Drayton]

I think the historical parallel breaks down if you look at the wider context. Nazi Germany had just lost a world war and it thus seemed in some sense "just" that Germans as a whole should be punished. There was a similar ruthless expulsion of the German population from Silesia in Poland, an area in which Germans and Poles had previously cohabited fairly harmoniously.
Turkey, on the other hand, is a key ally of the major Western powers who I imagine are brokering the settlement behind the scenes. The new power game that is being played in the Caucasus makes me believe that Turkey has become a more important ally for the West. I do not see an environment in which it is considered necessary to punish Turkey, let alone Turkish people in general.

[Salonikios]

Utu you miss an important factor.Only on the eve of the WW2 and under special circumstances did the Sudeten Germans get expelled.Even if Cypriots wanted they can't expel TC.

In any case TC have pretty much play the trojan horse role for Cyprus as Sudetens played for Czechoslovakia.

TCs wanted colonialists British to remain thus undermining the independence of the island, then wanted it to be returned(?) to Turkey (Ottoman empire=Turkey? Armenians would be glad to hear that) thus again undermining the independence of Cyprus as the majority wouldn't have agreed.

Then we have 1960 which is a fragmentation of Cyprus as both communities would have been locked to their respective "ghettos" with their respective governors.mayors,bureaucracy a point TC made all along the negotiations.Again undermining the function of a unitary state.

That's what Sudeten said to Czechoslovakian president right before the Munich agreement.They wanted autonomy within the state, to implement their own policy separate from the rest of the country.

Of course at least Sudetens were majority in a certain part of the country whilst TC weren't but this only stresses how much they disliked the prospect of a sole Cypriot state and how futile the current negotiations are.

[Nikitas]

Guaranteeing minority rights, which seems to be a favorite hobby horse for Zan and some others, is a basic feature of all collective enterprises, whether they are states or commercial companies. It is not an invention waiting to be discovered in Cyprus or any other place.

The aspect of what will happen if...... in relation to either community gaining the upper hand is pretty much demostrated by the behavior of both sides since 1974 when they gained supremacy in separate areas.

The Turkish side has implemented policies already used in Turkey against minorities. The treatment of GCs who were enclaved in Karpasia is pretty much the same as the treatment of Greeks in Imvros, Tenedos, Istanbul. THey have been disenfranhcised, deprived of rights, treated like hostages.

In the south TCs and other minorities are treated equally. The TCs have rights of property, work, social security, etc. There is a difference in army service and confusion about the right to vote and be elected which (if I remember rightly) is under judicial review now.

Some might say that the "gentle" treatment of TCs in the south is due to the fear of the Turkish army. Those who propose this forget the treatment of the GCs in the north now that the army is there and TCs supposefly feel safe and should be able to behave as free people and are behaving like Nazis. Any objective person can see that it is much better to be a TC in the south than a GC in the north.

From these differences we can pretty much conclude what would happen if either side prevailed.

Utu, in your thesis it might be interesting to ponder the political maturity achieved by each side since 1974. The disaster of 1974 has induced political maturity in the south and has strengthened democratic institutions. EU membership has solidified the process. THe north still lags behind and seems to be in a time warp. It is a quirk of history that the victorious are in fact the substantive losers in many ways.

I know there will be all kinds of reactions to the above, but the facts are there for all to see. Just take the elections and changes in leaderships since 1974, which are fundamental elements of a democratic process. The south has changed leadership several times as happens normally in democracies. The north was under the personal regime of one person for decades.

[zan]

Guaranteeing minority rights, which seems to be a favorite hobby horse for Zan and some others, is a basic feature of all collective enterprises, whether they are states or commercial companies. It is not an invention waiting to be discovered in Cyprus or any other place.

The aspect of what will happen if...... in relation to either community gaining the upper hand is pretty much demostrated by the behavior of both sides since 1974 when they gained supremacy in separate areas.

The Turkish side has implemented policies already used in Turkey against minorities. The treatment of GCs who were enclaved in Karpasia is pretty much the same as the treatment of Greeks in Imvros, Tenedos, Istanbul. THey have been disenfranhcised, deprived of rights, treated like hostages.

In the south TCs and other minorities are treated equally. The TCs have rights of property, work, social security, etc. There is a difference in army service and confusion about the right to vote and be elected which (if I remember rightly) is under judicial review now.

Some might say that the "gentle" treatment of TCs in the south is due to the fear of the Turkish army. Those who propose this forget the treatment of the GCs in the north now that the army is there and TCs supposefly feel safe and should be able to behave as free people and are behaving like Nazis. Any objective person can see that it is much better to be a TC in the south than a GC in the north.

From these differences we can pretty much conclude what would happen if either side prevailed.

Utu, in your thesis it might be interesting to ponder the political maturity achieved by each side since 1974. The disaster of 1974 has induced political maturity in the south and has strengthened democratic institutions. EU membership has solidified the process. THe north still lags behind and seems to be in a time warp. It is a quirk of history that the victorious are in fact the substantive losers in many ways.

I know there will be all kinds of reactions to the above, but the facts are there for all to see. Just take the elections and changes in leaderships since 1974, which are fundamental elements of a democratic process. The south has changed leadership several times as happens normally in democracies. The north was under the personal regime of one person for decades.

You had 20,000 TCs in your hands in 1974 Nikitas.....You could have protected them from Turkey had you so wished and more importantly had they wanted to stay......You just got rid of a massive headache for yourselves and a chance to blame the isolation on us. Turkey had no chance of reaching these people had you made provisions for them and kept them safe......Total bullshit from you once again!!!