Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

And finally CopperLine ...

If someone hates the social / political / cultural practices of another society it might be because they are an idealist and not a racist!

[zan]

Very interesting video Oracle. I don't know if you wanted a reaction from complete novices like me on this issue but I still cannot separate memes and temes from the original survival of the fittest.

From Blackmore's point of view ... she is trying to make out that memes are a purely Human phenomenon. This is a fallacy.

She has wrecked the original exciting idea proposed by Dawkins as to the existence of memes .... cultural, heritable units ... co-existing in parallel to genes and in my opinion impinging on genes by altering which ones are expressed from one generation to the next ... not by mutation (necessary in the theory of evolution) but methylation (subtle easily alterable change) ... which would have brought it into the realms of pure science and where I thought it was headed before Blackmore took over. Her teme postulate is far removed form this meme concept and she is running before she can walk.

Genes mutate during replication and as such might become more suitable or less so for the environment of their host. So they are more/less likely to survive and get passed on to another generation etc. Memes IMHO should be those processes that happen in the womb or shortly after that lead to certain of our genes being expressed in different ways depending on the subtle changes in our environment (secondary effects) such as the type of food, music, language etc we are experiencing. They may even be alterable in adults.

But instead of providing evidence for this, she has jumped onto the technology bandwagon and proposed this third set of information parasites, temes ... which actually have no attachment to us ... take a child away from the laptop put him in a backward village and presto resort back to peasant. ..... talking and dancing and singing (memes). Still thriving. But maybe not as attractive to a city geek looking for an IT compatible partner


As I said .... bad communicators .... try another approach.

If you take a culture of bacteria and add an antibiotic to it which they are sensitive to ... grow the culture; eventually all would die off except the one which had mutated to be resistant to the Antibiotic ..... keep growing the culture and pretty soon all the survivors are resistant to the antibiotic. That is survival of the fittest.

But take a culture of bacteria which can either grow in glucose or lactose ... add glucose and lactose to the growth medium and their glucose metabolizing genes are switched on because they prefer glucose ... when the glucose is used up they have to switch off the glucose metabolising genes and switch on the lactose ones ... that is a type of meme in action although it is encoded for in their genes.

Another slant ... Blackmore seems to think memes are unique to humans ... but many other species show cultural diversity too ...chimps cracking nuts with stones ... as a meme that habit gets copied to other chimps that have witnessed the performance.

I could go on ... but I hope you have a drift that I know will spur you on to your own ideas.

So you are saying that memes can, in a sustained era of war for instance, produce a nation of waring men. This would then account for why Jews are good at business, Turks at war and Greeks at deceptiveness?


Can memes accelerate evolution? For example, can an animals limb be made bigger quicker to produce an elephant, for example. Not by chance but by gauging, through how the mother/father needs to better itself and providing the right conditions to make the process act faster. Can a person "think" it's offspring more clever? subconsciously?

[Oracle]

[So you are saying that memes can, in a sustained era of war for instance, produce a nation of waring men.

We already have the capacity to be aggressive, as a genetically determined trait .... linked to male hormone production plus other factors. But how we express this facet is probably subject to individual modification and hence can generate a meme which if copied by others, perpetuated.

But then it is also countered by many more genes which make us social creatures, and the drive tends towards making us more civilised.

This would then account for why Jews are good at business, Turks at war and Greeks at deceptiveness?

Hhhmmm!

Can memes accelerate evolution?

Why were do you want it to go? ... Evolution is not teleological!

But specimens exhibiting more of the desirable characteristics may be more likely to be picked as mating partners thus passing on their genes. So if you are good at picking up favourable/attractive memes your lineage may be more likely to continue.

For example, can an animals limb be made bigger quicker to produce an elephant, for example. Not by chance but by gauging, through how the mother/father needs to better itself and providing the right conditions to make the process act faster. Can a person "think" it's offspring more clever? subconsciously?

OK how much did you have to drink at that wedding?

You can't speed up evolution because it is dependent on environment ... this is what most people forget!

(But Humans can breed e.g. dogs from wolves/foxes in 20 generations or so).

In the end, our Earthly environment (Gaia) makes the final choice (natural selection) as to who is fit and who is not!

Look at the case with the dinosaurs

Of course man can have a hand at selecting now ( e.g. cloning), so I guess we are sort if in a battle with the Earth, which gave rise to us .....


(Pssst Zan ... just as an aside, are you going down the hot-housing path for your kids? ... Why don't you start a thread on intelligence and its improvement and we can discuss that specifically )

[zan]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

[Oracle]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

I'm not resisting anything, I've been called "mad" over an observation I "Eureka -ed" by a Nobel Laureate who later went on to regret it, as it proved pivotal to a significant publication .... Lamarckian evolution (giraffe stretching to get leaves at top of tree, grew longer neck etc) pre-dated Darwin ... and is coming back into vogue as an offshoot of memes ....

The type of evolution to which you are referring which happens in leaps and bounds is punctuated equilibrium (favoured by Gould) ... which is part and parcel of Darwin's Theory of Evolution anyway ... it pretty much encapsulates most matters.

If you're into Science Fiction, you can make up all sorts of scenarios ... but in the end you have to find evidence for them ....

I have a file of "Blue Sky" projects ... but no one would fund them because scientific research is still very expensive and a luxury.

[zan]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

I'm not resisting anything, I've been called "mad" over an observation I "Eureka -ed" by a Nobel Laureate who later went on to regret it, as it proved pivotal to a significant publication .... Lamarckian evolution (giraffe stretching to get leaves at top of tree, grew longer neck etc) pre-dated Darwin ... and is coming back into vogue as an offshoot of memes ....

The type of evolution to which you are referring which happens in leaps and bounds is punctuated equilibrium (favoured by Gould) ... which is part and parcel of Darwin's Theory of Evolution anyway ... it pretty much encapsulates most matters.

If you're into Science Fiction, you can make up all sorts of scenarios ... but in the end you have to find evidence for them ....

I have a file of "Blue Sky" projects ... but no one would fund them because scientific research is still very expensive and a luxury.

Then isn't that what I was asking in my first post?????? I had a drink last night but what are you on?????

[Oracle]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

I'm not resisting anything, I've been called "mad" over an observation I "Eureka -ed" by a Nobel Laureate who later went on to regret it, as it proved pivotal to a significant publication .... Lamarckian evolution (giraffe stretching to get leaves at top of tree, grew longer neck etc) pre-dated Darwin ... and is coming back into vogue as an offshoot of memes ....

The type of evolution to which you are referring which happens in leaps and bounds is punctuated equilibrium (favoured by Gould) ... which is part and parcel of Darwin's Theory of Evolution anyway ... it pretty much encapsulates most matters.

If you're into Science Fiction, you can make up all sorts of scenarios ... but in the end you have to find evidence for them ....

I have a file of "Blue Sky" projects ... but no one would fund them because scientific research is still very expensive and a luxury.

Then isn't that what I was asking in my first post?????? I had a drink last night but what are you on?????

Onions ... layers ... .... I can't tell you everything in one post ... your brain will short circuit

Besides all that stuff pretty quickly becomes conventional since our "box" is so vast but still expanding with an acceleration to match ..... ....I wonder how they are getting on over at the LHC

[zan]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

I'm not resisting anything, I've been called "mad" over an observation I "Eureka -ed" by a Nobel Laureate who later went on to regret it, as it proved pivotal to a significant publication .... Lamarckian evolution (giraffe stretching to get leaves at top of tree, grew longer neck etc) pre-dated Darwin ... and is coming back into vogue as an offshoot of memes ....

The type of evolution to which you are referring which happens in leaps and bounds is punctuated equilibrium (favoured by Gould) ... which is part and parcel of Darwin's Theory of Evolution anyway ... it pretty much encapsulates most matters.

If you're into Science Fiction, you can make up all sorts of scenarios ... but in the end you have to find evidence for them ....

I have a file of "Blue Sky" projects ... but no one would fund them because scientific research is still very expensive and a luxury.

Then isn't that what I was asking in my first post?????? I had a drink last night but what are you on?????

Onions ... layers ... .... I can't tell you everything in one post ... your brain will short circuit

Besides all that stuff pretty quickly becomes conventional since our "box" is so vast but still expanding with an acceleration to match ..... ....I wonder how they are getting on over at the LHC

Wow! Man...Onions can really mess you up...Say NO dude!!!!!


You mean.......Thanks Zan...I never thought along those lines before. You have opened a whole new world to me and I will now be able to steal your idea and get my Nobel prize.......Greek memes at work yet again

[Oracle]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

I'm not resisting anything, I've been called "mad" over an observation I "Eureka -ed" by a Nobel Laureate who later went on to regret it, as it proved pivotal to a significant publication .... Lamarckian evolution (giraffe stretching to get leaves at top of tree, grew longer neck etc) pre-dated Darwin ... and is coming back into vogue as an offshoot of memes ....

The type of evolution to which you are referring which happens in leaps and bounds is punctuated equilibrium (favoured by Gould) ... which is part and parcel of Darwin's Theory of Evolution anyway ... it pretty much encapsulates most matters.

If you're into Science Fiction, you can make up all sorts of scenarios ... but in the end you have to find evidence for them ....

I have a file of "Blue Sky" projects ... but no one would fund them because scientific research is still very expensive and a luxury.

Then isn't that what I was asking in my first post?????? I had a drink last night but what are you on?????

Onions ... layers ... .... I can't tell you everything in one post ... your brain will short circuit

Besides all that stuff pretty quickly becomes conventional since our "box" is so vast but still expanding with an acceleration to match ..... ....I wonder how they are getting on over at the LHC

Wow! Man...Onions can really mess you up...Say NO dude!!!!!


You mean.......Thanks Zan...I never thought along those lines before. You have opened a whole new world to me and I will now be able to steal your idea and get my Nobel prize.......Greek memes at work yet again

What idea? ... a jumble of confused words thrown together are not an idea by any stretch of the imagination ... don't give up the day job bright spark

Now are you going to start a thread on improving intelligence or not?

[zan]

You are too fixed in your thinking re Oracle...That line of thinking is what you have been taught. I am asking you to think outside the evolution box that you have had ingrained into you. There are still some questions surrounding evolution and, though I can't remember at he moment which exact bits they are, some evolutionary traits have evolved faster than they should have. If, like Magnus' links explained, missing a father or a mother can change your brain links then why not for other more evolutionary reliant things.


You seem to be a bit of an old dog resisting new things.....

I'm not resisting anything, I've been called "mad" over an observation I "Eureka -ed" by a Nobel Laureate who later went on to regret it, as it proved pivotal to a significant publication .... Lamarckian evolution (giraffe stretching to get leaves at top of tree, grew longer neck etc) pre-dated Darwin ... and is coming back into vogue as an offshoot of memes ....

The type of evolution to which you are referring which happens in leaps and bounds is punctuated equilibrium (favoured by Gould) ... which is part and parcel of Darwin's Theory of Evolution anyway ... it pretty much encapsulates most matters.

If you're into Science Fiction, you can make up all sorts of scenarios ... but in the end you have to find evidence for them ....

I have a file of "Blue Sky" projects ... but no one would fund them because scientific research is still very expensive and a luxury.

Then isn't that what I was asking in my first post?????? I had a drink last night but what are you on?????

Onions ... layers ... .... I can't tell you everything in one post ... your brain will short circuit

Besides all that stuff pretty quickly becomes conventional since our "box" is so vast but still expanding with an acceleration to match ..... ....I wonder how they are getting on over at the LHC

Wow! Man...Onions can really mess you up...Say NO dude!!!!!


You mean.......Thanks Zan...I never thought along those lines before. You have opened a whole new world to me and I will now be able to steal your idea and get my Nobel prize.......Greek memes at work yet again

What idea? ... a jumble of confused words thrown together are not an idea by any stretch of the imagination ... don't give up the day job bright spark

Now are you going to start a thread on improving intelligence or not?

See....It's started already......No acknowledgment from the start.......

Not without banning you for lack of!!!! I would not like to do that so here will do.