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Postby BC Numismatics » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:59 am

Tim Drayton wrote:
haplessboyrussell wrote:My Finnish and Hungarian history aren't great - but don't they both have historic links with Russian in terms of language. Swedes have little problem with other Scandanavian languages, but always tell me Finnish isn't understandable because it's more related to Russian than Swedish...


Finish is not related to Russian. Russian is an Indo-European language, while Finnish belongs to the Finno-Ugric language group. One interesting feature of Finnish is the large number of cases that nouns can take - I think it is fifteen.


Tim,
The closest living language that is related to Finnish is not Hungarian,but Estonian.Finns & Estonians can understand each other in a same way that a Scots-Gaelic-speaking Scotsman can understand an Erse-speaking Irishman.

Aidan.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:03 am

BC Numismatics wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
haplessboyrussell wrote:My Finnish and Hungarian history aren't great - but don't they both have historic links with Russian in terms of language. Swedes have little problem with other Scandanavian languages, but always tell me Finnish isn't understandable because it's more related to Russian than Swedish...


Finish is not related to Russian. Russian is an Indo-European language, while Finnish belongs to the Finno-Ugric language group. One interesting feature of Finnish is the large number of cases that nouns can take - I think it is fifteen.


Tim,
The closest living language that is related to Finnish is not Hungarian,but Estonian.Finns & Estonians can understand each other in a same way that a Scots-Gaelic-speaking Scotsman can understand an Erse-speaking Irishman.

Aidan.


I have no dispute with that.
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Postby Oracle » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:35 pm

CopperLine wrote: ... What is quite illegitimate is those who post asserting a genetic basis for cultural, political, social and economic variation. They assume exactly that which needs to be explained, which as we know is the antithesis of scientific enquiry.


It is such studies as this one which will put an end to the myths, eventually.

Here we see the relationship between all peoples. Even the ones which become genetically isolated by environmental factors such as the ice age or mountainous terrains. It is the influences of these environmental factors, which we know about from other disciplines, which can finally be assessed in terms of what they did to force more migrations or allow groups to stay put and the differences in cultural / social developments which consequently take place ... (e.g. sickle cell anemia was a mutation which was selected for due to an environmental pressure) ...

However the environmentally forced changes, do not alter us genetically enough to put us into different races. I cannot stress this point enough unless I make you sequence DNA from two groups which you consider are as far apart as can be in terms of phenotype, and then you might appreciate that the exceptionally few differences in DNA bases which you pick up, would be comparable to the differences you will see if you sequenced DNA from two siblings ... and you would not attempt to put two brothers into different races just because one had DNA for blue eyes and and the other had DNA for brown eyes.

At best there is a 30% : 30% : 30% : ratio of Nature : Nurture : Individual make-up for each individual (applies to most mammals) ... which applies to all members of the Human Race equally!

Any changing, short lived, environmental / cultural traits are proposed to be set down as memes not genes. I have seen evidence to suggest they may influence things such as obesity (if the mother was malnourished during pregnancy, resulting child would would become predisposed to obesity) and if the meme mould-ability is still active in the first year of nurturing things such as language have meme like attachment (Tim may know more about this).

Whilst I've been trying to get my head round the importance or otherwise of memes, as the evidence is gathered for their case ... we are now faced with "temes".

I would really appreciate opinions on this video about temes .....

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/susa ... temes.html

( CopperLine please let go of preconceived notions once in a while :) )
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Postby CopperLine » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:50 pm

sickle cell anemia was a mutation which was selected for due [sic] to an environmental pressure
If indeed so, sickle-cell anaemia is a biological evolution not a social, cultural, political, etc development.
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Postby Oracle » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:16 pm

CopperLine wrote:
sickle cell anemia was a mutation which was selected for due [sic] to an environmental pressure
If indeed so, sickle-cell anaemia is a biological evolution not a social, cultural, political, etc development.


CopperLine .... are you suggesting those carriers of sickle cell anaemia are biologically evolved differently ( more or less) than other people?

It is an adaptation to the environment (exposure to malaria) but evolutionarily they are no more advanced or dis-advanced than other people who may have other environmental adaptations.
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Postby CopperLine » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:00 pm

It is an adaptation to the environment (exposure to malaria) but evolutionarily they are no more advanced or dis-advanced than other people who may have other environmental adaptations.
In other words not a social, cultural, political, etc matter - as I have said all along, no connection between 'humanity' [noun] and genes.
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Postby zan » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:14 pm

Can genes be effected by the mental state of the mother in early stages of pregnancy????

Added: This is a serious question and not a piss take. I have often wondered????

Added 2: Or maybe at the time of egg production or maybe even sperm production.



Very interesting video Oracle. I don't know if you wanted a reaction from complete novices like me on this issue but I still cannot separate memes and temes from the original survival of the fittest.
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Postby Magnus » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:40 pm

zan wrote:Can genes be effected by the mental state of the mother in early stages of pregnancy????

Added: This is a serious question and not a piss take. I have often wondered????

Added 2: Or maybe at the time of egg production or maybe even sperm production.



Very interesting video Oracle. I don't know if you wanted a reaction from complete novices like me on this issue but I still cannot separate memes and temes from the original survival of the fittest.


You might find this article from New Scientist interesting:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mental-health/dn9535-stress-in-pregnancy-hits-offsprings-emotional-brain.html

Maybe this one too:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb04/programmed.html
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Postby zan » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:46 pm

Magnus wrote:
zan wrote:Can genes be effected by the mental state of the mother in early stages of pregnancy????

Added: This is a serious question and not a piss take. I have often wondered????

Added 2: Or maybe at the time of egg production or maybe even sperm production.



Very interesting video Oracle. I don't know if you wanted a reaction from complete novices like me on this issue but I still cannot separate memes and temes from the original survival of the fittest.


You might find this article from New Scientist interesting:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mental-health/dn9535-stress-in-pregnancy-hits-offsprings-emotional-brain.html

Maybe this one too:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb04/programmed.html



Thanks Magnus...Very interesting.
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Postby Oracle » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:54 pm

CopperLine wrote:
It is an adaptation to the environment (exposure to malaria) but evolutionarily they are no more advanced or dis-advanced than other people who may have other environmental adaptations.
In other words not a social, cultural, political, etc matter - as I have said all along, no connection between 'humanity' [noun] and genes.


No you are quite wrong! We are Human because we have Human genes. They play a part in who we are and are responsive (feedback?) to our environment .... otherwise we would not be such a successful species, having colonised more niches than most other species (except perhaps rats :lol: ).

Evolutionarily and genetically, we are one race. Individual differences (brothers with different coloured eyes for example) show that we can have phenotypic differences that are so great yet genetically we are too similar to assign races ... and I hope these studies eventually turn this into a simple fact.

The root of our humanity is in our genes; they regulate us as biochemical bags, in equilibrium with our changing environments. We in turn affect our environment by our existence. Some believe we are so intertwined we, plants, the earth ..... are one huge organism (Gaia).

Maybe humanity means something different to a biologist as to what it does to an International Lawyer ... :?
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