Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

There are at least 2 other languages that belong to the same class as Finnish and Hungarian....Japanese and Turkish...Go figure...

[Oracle]

One error is indeed mine : that of trying to take to task Oracle who is actually stark raving bonkers. Mad as a box of frogs.

Mea culpa.

Boundless self-delusion, inability to count or simply confidence built from a short-term memory deficit.

On the plus side I am sure your skin benefits from all those egg masks I give you

Really more people should take you on ... behind the bamboozle are rich easy pickings of howlers, gaffes and clangers .... Still, your Latin teacher, with some foresight, prepared you well ....

So we have, at about 150,000 years ago, the one Mother Eve living in Africa who gave rise to the two main Mother clans now still traceable there. After the waves of migrations out of Africa into Europe, we are now left with seven Mothers that gave rise to all the present European population .... CopperLine, we could be very close relatives

The Seven Mothers of Europe:

Helena: This clan lived in the ice-capped Pyrenees. As the climate warmed, Helena’s descendants trekked northward to what is now England, some 12,000 years ago. Members of this group are now present in all European countries.

Jasmine: Her people had a relatively happy life in Syria, where they farmed wheat and raised domestic animals. Jasmine’s descendants traveled throughout Europe, spreading their agricultural innovations with them.

Katrine: Members of this group lived in Venice 10,000 years ago. Today most of Katrine’s clan lives in the Alps.

Tara: Sykes’ maternal ancestry goes back to this group, which settled in Tuscany 17,000 years ago. Descendants ventured across northern Europe and eventually crossed the English Channel.

Ursula: Users of stone tools, Ursula’s clan members drifted across all of Europe.

Valda: Originally from Spain, Valda and her immediate descendants lived 17,000 years ago. Later relatives moved into northern Finland and Norway.

Xenia: Her people lived in the Caucasus Mountains 25,000 years ago. Just before the Ice Age, this clan spread across Europe, and even reached the Americas.
(Sykes)

Which one might be your Mama?.... I figure I am a child of Xenia

Now for the million dollar question. Who is the mother of the Choirokitians and who is the mother of the Myceanians?

And what about the TCs? Who is their mother?

The Mycenaean and Choirokitians are probably from the same Mother Clan since the Mycenaeans migrated to Cyprus after the "origin" date of the youngest ... and I would hazard Jasmine or Xenia.

As for the TCs .... We need to do the migration charts out of Africa that went East, before fanning out (and then back west unfortunately ).

Please note, would be Nazis! ... We are ONE HUMAN RACE ... Sooo closely connected (just migrating into different niches ...OK!)

[Oracle]

There are at least 2 other languages that belong to the same class as Finnish and Hungarian....Japanese and Turkish...Go figure...

Bir ... there is an interesting discussion on that matter here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueri ... 73,00.html

[Tim Drayton]

There are at least 2 other languages that belong to the same class as Finnish and Hungarian....Japanese and Turkish...Go figure...

This was Ataturk's pet theory, but, however much I admire the man's achievements, he should have steered clear of linguistics and history because he made some pretty unsubstantiated claims in these fields.

[BirKibrisli]

There are at least 2 other languages that belong to the same class as Finnish and Hungarian....Japanese and Turkish...Go figure...

This was Ataturk's pet theory, but, however much I admire the man's achievements, he should have steered clear of linguistics and history because he made some pretty unsubstantiated claims in these fields.

Tim,
When I was studying French language and literature in Paris in the early 80s I had to give a paper on my mother tongue...All the linguistic books I consulted at the University of Sorbonne Nouvelle agreed that Turkish belonged to the Ural-Altaic group of languages together with Finnish,Hungarian,Japanese and Estonian (I think)...I never knew that Ataturk had a pet theory regarding the origins of Turkish...I must say I was surprised at this grouping myself at the time...Take it up with all those French language experts...

[Tim Drayton]

There are at least 2 other languages that belong to the same class as Finnish and Hungarian....Japanese and Turkish...Go figure...

This was Ataturk's pet theory, but, however much I admire the man's achievements, he should have steered clear of linguistics and history because he made some pretty unsubstantiated claims in these fields.

Tim,
When I was studying French language and literature in Paris in the early 80s I had to give a paper on my mother tongue...All the linguistic books I consulted at the University of Sorbonne Nouvelle agreed that Turkish belonged to the Ural-Altaic group of languages together with Finnish,Hungarian,Japanese and Estonian (I think)...I never knew that Ataturk had a pet theory regarding the origins of Turkish...I must say I was surprised at this grouping myself at the time...Take it up with all those French language experts...

According to the Wikipedia article on the Ural-Altaic group of languages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural-Altaic_languages

"The Ural-Altaic family was widely accepted by linguists who studied Uralic and Altaic until well into the 20th century. More recently, they have almost universally rejected it, although for very different reasons."

So it probably depends on how old the sources you refer to are. I do not think the theory that Turkish, Japanese, Hungarian and Finnish are all related carries much weight nowadays. I actually thought that Ataturk came up with this theory, but apparently not, even though he was a great supporter of it. He promoted some quite wacky theories about the historical, cultural and linguistic origins of the Turkish people. Academics in Turkey were required for some time to toe the line with respect to these theories, which may have helped to grant his pet theories greater credibility than they deserved.

I know that the syntax of Turkish and Japanese are astonishingly similar, but as far as I know there are no cognate words.

[CopperLine]

'Genography' and gene mutation on the one hand and language diffusion and mutation on the other hand are both inherently fascinating subjects. But even if the patterns of diffusion of one may seem to map on to the patterns of the other - and I've seen no evidence of this at all - it does not entail any causal connection let alone mechanism between one and the other.

Similarly the research in the article which seemed to prompt this thread, makes a categorical error as well as a basic explanatory error insofar as it takes genetic composition and gene diffusion (natural processes) and maps it onto countries (states, which are social-political categories). The irony is that this research does not tell us anything of any interest about (a) social or economic proceses nor does it tell us (b) anything about the relationship between genetic change and social change. It tells us nothing about 'humanity' or 'society.'

[Oracle]

It is only the limits of our knowledge which makes us disbelieving of quite how much information can be derived from genetic analysis in this field of study.

Anthropologists finally have more than just bones and pottery. But it will be the sharing of information from many disciplines which will help give us the fullest picture of migratory routes, establishment of tribes and associated territories and consequently societies, be they nomadic or stationary/sedentary.

The Genographic Project is led by Dr. Spencer Wells, a leading population geneticist in using DNA to study history and human migration. Working with Dr. Wells are researchers from IBM's Computational Biology Center, itself a leader in life sciences-oriented information technology research. Together, they are working with a global team of prominent research scientists from ten research centers around the world.

All activities are overseen by an advisory board of internationally recognized experts in indigenous advocacy, genetics, linguistics, archaeology, paleontology, cultural anthropology and ethics.

The Genographic Project's regional principal investigators were selected not only because of their scientific expertise, but also because of their experience and relationships with local indigenous communities and their representatives.

Backing the scientific investigators is a worldwide team of communications and technology professionals whose passion for this initiative matches that of their scientific colleagues.

Our collective goal is to ensure the project is completed with the highest level of integrity while providing deep insights into humanity's ancient history.

"We see this as the 'moon shot' of anthropology, using genetics to fill in the gaps in our knowledge of human history," said Dr. Spencer Wells. "Our DNA carries a story that is shared by everyone. Over the next five years we'll be deciphering that story, which is now in danger of being lost as people migrate and mix to a much greater extent than they have in the past."

The task of gathering genetic and associated data into a combined format that is usable by scientists and researchers remains daunting in its complexity. Bringing scientific expeditions into the modern era is an example of IBM's core value of driving innovation that matters to the world.

Source: IBM-Nat Geog.

[Tim Drayton]

'Genography' and gene mutation on the one hand and language diffusion and mutation on the other hand are both inherently fascinating subjects. But even if the patterns of diffusion of one may seem to map on to the patterns of the other - and I've seen no evidence of this at all - it does not entail any causal connection let alone mechanism between one and the other.

Similarly the research in the article which seemed to prompt this thread, makes a categorical error as well as a basic explanatory error insofar as it takes genetic composition and gene diffusion (natural processes) and maps it onto countries (states, which are social-political categories). The irony is that this research does not tell us anything of any interest about (a) social or economic proceses nor does it tell us (b) anything about the relationship between genetic change and social change. It tells us nothing about 'humanity' or 'society.'

It has been hypothesised that in some cases a small group of invaders may impose its political hegemony over a larger population to which it is not genetically related. This political hegemony may also entail cultural hegemony and the invaders' language is gradually adopted by everybody. Over time as a result of interbreeding the invaders fuse with the local population. As a result, the conquerors' language and the conquered people's genes survive. The inhabitants of Turkey are a good example - they speak a language related to those spoken in Central Asia but look like people in other Mediterranean countries.

[CopperLine]

Tim Drayton,
Let's set aside the details of genetics and gene mutation and assume that there is sufficient genetic distinction between Population A and Population B, following your account

It has been hypothesised that in some cases a small group of invaders may impose its political hegemony over a larger population to which it is not genetically related. This political hegemony may also entail cultural hegemony and the invaders' language is gradually adopted by everybody. Over time as a result of interbreeding the invaders fuse with the local population. As a result, the conquerors' language and the conquered people's genes survive. The inhabitants of Turkey are a good example - they speak a language related to those spoken in Central Asia but look like people in other Mediterranean countries.

which in my view is broadly plausible, the survival and continuity of language is not a function of genetics, but is - as you say - a consequence of 'political hegemony' i.e, a cultural and not genetic development.

That there may be some residual overlap between genetic makeup and language is coincidental in the Humean sense of a 'constant conjunction of events' but which reveals no causal mechanism.

So I agree with the general proposition you posted, if not in the detail (which, in any case, can only be examined historically). What is quite illegitimate is those who post asserting a genetic basis for cultural, political, social and economic variation. They assume exactly that which needs to be explained, which as we know is the antithesis of scientific enquiry.