Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

I see TC wants me to go and "fuck" myself. . Nice and proper debater.

I suspect that this Top_Cant and Zon the Plonker must have fecked themselves and possibly each other several times in the past as they still won't concede and appreciate the difference between the inter-communal conflict of 63, one in which both communities suffered and the events of 1974 when one of the largest armies in "Europe" invaded with many battalions of infantry, armour, paratroopers, warships, airplanes etc. etc.in a whole-scale WAR . One fought in the main against unarmed civilians.

(Once against condolences to the families of all the victims of both communities - barely a day goes by when I don't think of those who suffered and still suffer)

[zan]

So no serious comments about this article? Just a couple of sarcastic musings from a pair of morons who don't have the cojones to provide a logical counter-argument backed up by credible evidence?

How about some sort of denial from our resident extremists? Or maybe a bit of false symapthy from the 'non-aligned'? Better yet, why doesn't one of our lovely GC 'moderates' tell me that it's things like those in the article that mean we should sign over half the island to the Turks and rewrite the history books so we can be 'brothers' with them?

Maybe you're all busy flirting with bored housewives and thinking up words for those 'Game' threads.

Magnus, what is it that you are after, by posting the initial article in this thread? What was your intention or objective?

Hi Kifeas, I posted this article so that we can discuss the issue of the atrocities carried out by the Turkish army as I feel that this issue is often skimmed over. Whenever the issue is mentioned it seems to be the same arguments of 'you evil bastards' vs 'you deserve it for what you did to us' but very little beyond that.

I also wanted to see just how much all the various ideologies expressed on the forum stand up to such a graphic depiction of events. Sometimes it's easier to shoot our mouths off when time has apparently eroded our memories or when it has happened to 'faceless' people we don't know personally.

You will notice that I didn't even post any commentry or opinion at the start of this thread, just the article. You will also notice that the first reaction to the thread was a sarcastic comment and a couple of insults about my apparent 'lack of education' rather than a constructive criticism or opinion. I think this speaks volumes.

With regards to the comment you have quoted, I confess that it was written specifically to evoke some serious response. I felt that the responses to that point (bar that of Miltiades who attempted to keep it on track) were not treating the subject matter with sufficient respect while the lack of interest shown by others (despite over 100 views at the time) could perhaps signify a lack of conviction.

I know that looking at these events will not change the current status quo or have any significant effect. You might even say that it will accomplish nothing, but realistically what do any of the discussions on this forum accomplish?

Magnus.....I have been here over three years and have seen people that post those articles come and go and that is why you got the sarcastic comments...Perhaps you should have not invited them and posted your comments as well. Your experiment is floored mate......I asked if Deniz and Bananiots comments changed your way of thinking...Did it???

[Magnus]

Magnus...The GCs were fighting back...Turkey did not just rampage through....What planet are you guys living on

Zan, I appreciate that whatever military forces the GCs had were fighting back, but my issue is not with the conflict between armed individuals but for the atrocities carried out by the Turkish army against civillians, both during the invasion/intervention and after the ceasefire.

We aren't discussing fallen soldiers, we are discussing the harm to women, children and other combatants by armed individuals. I would appreciate if perhaps you might give your oipinion of the events described in the article and how you feel about them, how you feel about the perpetrators and if you were in any way aware that these things were happening at the time.

[bill cobbett]

Oops sorry - almost forgot.

If he'll allow me may I second VP when he posts above:-

"Both sides have suffered and these acts are dispicable and grotesque."

[zan]

Magnus...The GCs were fighting back...Turkey did not just rampage through....What planet are you guys living on

Zan, I appreciate that whatever military forces the GCs had were fighting back, but my issue is not with the conflict between armed individuals but for the atrocities carried out by the Turkish army against civillians, both during the invasion/intervention and after the ceasefire.

We aren't discussing fallen soldiers, we are discussing the harm to women, children and other combatants by armed individuals. I would appreciate if perhaps you might give your oipinion of the events described in the article and how you feel about them, how you feel about the perpetrators and if you were in any way aware that these things were happening at the time.

I have said many times and so have others that it was a bad time for all. What I have disputed is that the Greek junta were killing GCs long before Turkey arrived. Makarios' speech said that GC bodies littered the streets and a GC friend of mine has recently told me that his father was on burial duty at this time and that the list of those that were to be killed totaled 10,000. So my question is...All those articles you have posted...Are they down to Turkey or can we assume a more relevant reality. If you are asking me if I think the articles whether true or not are abhorrent...Then YES YES YES!!!!! So the story has more than one edge to it.

[Medman]

According to the film 'Attilas 74', Greek fortifications around the landing area were at its weakest along the coast. Some reckon the whole thing was a conspiracy and that Sampson was in the CIA. We can go on and on. Greek officers from Greece did not hang around to defend the area and left it to the Greek Cypriots to defend. The Greek Cypriot National Guard were not exactly pleased with this act of cowardice on the officers part for obvious reasons. The coup prompted the arrival of Turkish troops on to Cyprus. However humanitarian actions were carried out in all the chaos. Speaking to someone on the ground at the time, he stated that Greek was also killing Greek and you couldn't speak out in case of reprisals or worse. Those who believe that the Turkish community on Cyprus was not under threat by the coup must have been brainwashed or not been there and believed the propaganda about the whole situation. I spoke to members of the Greek community and they don't want to talk about the coup and how people turned on one another because of their political alliances.

[miltiades]

I was watching a tv programme about Cypriots who fought with the allies in Italy. The presenter asked one of them to describe something that really struck out. The old soldier, without hesitation, immediately replied "the way the Poles killed Germans".

How can we be looking for justice in a war? War is all about taking lives and there is no way to feel at ease with this, even if the bad guys lose out.

It is true that the Turkish army went on a rampage, killing captives and spreading terror and fear in its passage. Yet, last April I attended the funeral of my fellow villager Kkitros who was laid to rest after so many years when his bones were eventually identified. Sevgul Uludag was there too. The nephew of Kkitros (a lawyer I believe) gave an unbelievably balanced speech, despite his sorrow. He told the large crowed that attended the funeral that the Turkish army started executing people after the mass graves were discovered in Aloa, Sandalaris and another village whose name I do not remember now. There, women and children were brutaly murdered by Greek Cypriots.

War brings the worse out of people. Everybody is capable of atrocities during war times. The Americans did it at Mi Lai in Vietnam and the cultured French behaved barbarously in Algeria. The Greek army in Asia minor was no better, according to Dido Soteriou (Matomena Chomata - also translated into Turkish. All must read this masterpiece). We took patients out of their hospital beds in 1963 and threw them down wells, after we put a bullet in their head.

It is the duty of all Cypriots to strive so that we and our childern and our childrens children do not have to go through this agony again. If we insist on counting who murdered more and who less we will be missing the point and end up like Piratis et al who think that justice is a matter of statistics. We need to bury the hatchet. We need peace here and now and now that a new effort is made we should be encouraging our leaders to move positively towards peace. The blame game feeds only the war monster. Even if things seem difficult we should never give up.

One final thought. There are bad people in both communities. We know who they are and it is up to us to cut their murdering hands. This can only be achieved if we get the peace we deserve. Otherwise we might as well feed the minautor of hate with more young blood.

Basically you are saying let's forget what happened because it was carried out by Turks.

A misconstrued death of one TC in 1963 is worth a special mention by you to remind us of our "crimes" ... without any back-up evidence ... yet thousands of war crimes by Turkey against GCs had best be "buried as a hatchet" and not be used in mere statistic games.

I wouldn't be surprised if your misogynistic tendencies aren't helping you sweep this article under the carpet as irrelevant details to the all-important goal of having your beloved Turkey on our soil....

Then at least admit your crimes and the fact that you took our country away from us and then you will be more believable......This is not a plea because I know it will not happen. You coming up with lies and distortions will give me either a two state system or recognition...Either will do...I am tired of waiting for you to come to your senses...

You are on of the most bitter , divisive and destructive individual on this forum.
How on earth can you accuse the 80 % of Cypriots as having taken YOUR country away from you. You are a twisted and rather pathetic individual .
You have offered absolutely NOTHING in the reconciliation efforts that genuine Cypriots from both sides are involved in. How dare you pretend that you represent the opinion of the moderates amongst T/Cs , you are by all account a Grey Wolf dedicated to the permanent division of this island .
Listen Plonker , most of the decent Cypriots have expressed their sorrow that fanatics and extremists from both sides have have caused so much suffering to our people , all apart from Zan the Hate Master .

[Kifeas]

Miltiades, how can you call somebody a hate master, when in fact he is an essentially mentally castrated individual?

[Oracle]

Bananiot wrote:
I was watching a tv programme about Cypriots who fought with the allies in Italy. The presenter asked one of them to describe something that really struck out. The old soldier, without hesitation, immediately replied "the way the Poles killed Germans".

How can we be looking for justice in a war? War is all about taking lives and there is no way to feel at ease with this, even if the bad guys lose out.

It is true that the Turkish army went on a rampage, killing captives and spreading terror and fear in its passage. Yet, last April I attended the funeral of my fellow villager Kkitros who was laid to rest after so many years when his bones were eventually identified. Sevgul Uludag was there too. The nephew of Kkitros (a lawyer I believe) gave an unbelievably balanced speech, despite his sorrow. He told the large crowed that attended the funeral that the Turkish army started executing people after the mass graves were discovered in Aloa, Sandalaris and another village whose name I do not remember now. There, women and children were brutaly murdered by Greek Cypriots.

War brings the worse out of people. Everybody is capable of atrocities during war times. The Americans did it at Mi Lai in Vietnam and the cultured French behaved barbarously in Algeria. The Greek army in Asia minor was no better, according to Dido Soteriou (Matomena Chomata - also translated into Turkish. All must read this masterpiece). We took patients out of their hospital beds in 1963 and threw them down wells, after we put a bullet in their head.

It is the duty of all Cypriots to strive so that we and our childern and our childrens children do not have to go through this agony again. If we insist on counting who murdered more and who less we will be missing the point and end up like Piratis et al who think that justice is a matter of statistics. We need to bury the hatchet. We need peace here and now and now that a new effort is made we should be encouraging our leaders to move positively towards peace. The blame game feeds only the war monster. Even if things seem difficult we should never give up.

One final thought. There are bad people in both communities. We know who they are and it is up to us to cut their murdering hands. This can only be achieved if we get the peace we deserve. Otherwise we might as well feed the minautor of hate with more young blood.

Oracle wrote

Basically you are saying let's forget what happened because it was carried out by Turks.

A misconstrued death of one TC in 1963 is worth a special mention by you to remind us of our "crimes" ... without any back-up evidence ... yet thousands of war crimes by Turkey against GCs had best be "buried as a hatchet" and not be used in mere statistic games.

I wouldn't be surprised if your misogynistic tendencies aren't helping you sweep this article under the carpet as irrelevant details to the all-important goal of having your beloved Turkey on our soil....

It's quite clear what Bananiot is saying, if you can't see it I have highlighted it for you to make it easier for you.

I know what Bananiot is saying mehmet. He is saying the Turks have got what they want, now let's leave them to enjoy it and forget being nasty like looking for justice to how they got it ... because they are Turks and are untouchable ......

What About Turkey’s War Criminals?
By Gene Rossides

August 5, 2008

The recent arrest of former Bosnian Serbian leader Radovan Karadzic by the Serbian government in Belgrade in late July and his extradition on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 to The Hague to face a U.N. war crimes tribunal raises questions about Turkey’s war criminals and why no action has been taken against them.

Karadzic, the former president of the Bosnian Serb republic was arrested in late July after 11 years on the run. He was commander of the Bosnian Serb forces and faces two charges of genocide arising from the 43 month siege of Sarajevo and the massacre in 1995 of 8,000 Muslims at Srebrenica.

A war crimes court in Bosnia recently convicted seven Bosnian Serbs of genocide for their roles in mass killings in the city of Srebrenica in 1995. They were former policemen at a time when Karadzic was their political leader.

War crimes by Turkey’s political and military leaders involve two matters: 1) Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus in 1974 and its continuing occupation since 1974 of 37% of Cyprus, and 2) Turkey’s actions since 1984 against its 20% Kurdish minority.

Turkey’s War Crimes in Cyprus
Turkey’s war crimes and crimes against humanity stem from its invasion of Cyprus on July 20, 1974 and its massive second wave of aggression from August 14 to 16, 1974, three weeks after the legitimate government of Cyprus had been restored, in which Turkey was found guilty by the European Commission on Human Rights in its report of July 10, 1976, (1) of 10 killing innocent civilians on a substantial scale; (2) of the rape of women of all ages from 12 to 71; (3) of inhuman treatment of prisoners and persons detained; (4) of the deprivation of liberty regarding detainees and missing persons; (5) of the displacement (the forcing from their homes and properties) of persons creating more than 170,000 Greek Cypriot refugees in their own country and refusing to allow these refugees to return to their homes and properties; and (6) of looting and robbery on an extensive scale.

The London Sunday Times, on January 23, 1977, published excerpts of the report and stated: “It amounts to a massive indictment of the Ankara government for the murder, rape and looting by its army in Cyprus during and after the Turkish invasion of summer 1974.”

Turkish Premier Bulent Ecevit and General Kenan, Evren War Criminals
Turkey’s premier in 1974 was Bulent Ecevit, since deceased. Ecevit ordered the invasion on the recommendation of the Turkish military. At that time the head of the Turkish military was General Kenan Evren.

Under the Turkish constitution in 1974, Turkey’s National Security Council made the decisions on national security, defense and foreign affairs matters. It was chaired by the military chief of staff, General Kenan Evren, and a majority of its members were military officers. Premier Ecevit was a member of Turkey’s NSC.

Both Premier Ecevit and General Kenan Evren were both war criminals for their actions in ordering the invasion of Cyprus. And the entire Turkish National Security Council in 1974 of eleven members were all war criminals. Keep in mind that in the massive second wave of the invasion on August 14-16, 1974 Turkey committed war crimes, ethnic cleansing and applied a policy of apartheid to Cyprus; that it was three weeks after the legitimate government of Cyprus had been restored on July 23, 1974 and Turkey’s actions had no justification and no alleged pretext. It was pure aggression and those responsible were and are war criminals.

The evidence has been clear for some times that the Turkish invasion and land grab of over one-third of Cyprus was long planned. It turns out that in the second wave of aggression from August 14 to 16, 1974 the Turkish troops seized more territory, including Varosha (Famagusta), than they had orders to take. In his memoirs., which the Turkish daily newspaper, Milliyet, published in October 1990, General Evren stated:

“The truth is that the Turkish troops occupied more land than they planned to occupy.”

The then-Turkish Premier Ecevit said: “Let it be in our hands, we will give it back in the talks as a concession.”

Turkish army commanders in Cyprus
The Turkish army commanders in Cyprus also qualify as war criminals for the killing of innocent civilians on a substantial scale and the rapes and inhuman treatment of prisoners. Further they should have been charged as war criminals for the murder of 5 American citizens who were kidnapped and killed by Turkish forces and Turkish Cypriot militia.

[zan]

I was watching a tv programme about Cypriots who fought with the allies in Italy. The presenter asked one of them to describe something that really struck out. The old soldier, without hesitation, immediately replied "the way the Poles killed Germans".

How can we be looking for justice in a war? War is all about taking lives and there is no way to feel at ease with this, even if the bad guys lose out.

It is true that the Turkish army went on a rampage, killing captives and spreading terror and fear in its passage. Yet, last April I attended the funeral of my fellow villager Kkitros who was laid to rest after so many years when his bones were eventually identified. Sevgul Uludag was there too. The nephew of Kkitros (a lawyer I believe) gave an unbelievably balanced speech, despite his sorrow. He told the large crowed that attended the funeral that the Turkish army started executing people after the mass graves were discovered in Aloa, Sandalaris and another village whose name I do not remember now. There, women and children were brutaly murdered by Greek Cypriots.

War brings the worse out of people. Everybody is capable of atrocities during war times. The Americans did it at Mi Lai in Vietnam and the cultured French behaved barbarously in Algeria. The Greek army in Asia minor was no better, according to Dido Soteriou (Matomena Chomata - also translated into Turkish. All must read this masterpiece). We took patients out of their hospital beds in 1963 and threw them down wells, after we put a bullet in their head.

It is the duty of all Cypriots to strive so that we and our childern and our childrens children do not have to go through this agony again. If we insist on counting who murdered more and who less we will be missing the point and end up like Piratis et al who think that justice is a matter of statistics. We need to bury the hatchet. We need peace here and now and now that a new effort is made we should be encouraging our leaders to move positively towards peace. The blame game feeds only the war monster. Even if things seem difficult we should never give up.

One final thought. There are bad people in both communities. We know who they are and it is up to us to cut their murdering hands. This can only be achieved if we get the peace we deserve. Otherwise we might as well feed the minautor of hate with more young blood.

Basically you are saying let's forget what happened because it was carried out by Turks.

A misconstrued death of one TC in 1963 is worth a special mention by you to remind us of our "crimes" ... without any back-up evidence ... yet thousands of war crimes by Turkey against GCs had best be "buried as a hatchet" and not be used in mere statistic games.

I wouldn't be surprised if your misogynistic tendencies aren't helping you sweep this article under the carpet as irrelevant details to the all-important goal of having your beloved Turkey on our soil....

Then at least admit your crimes and the fact that you took our country away from us and then you will be more believable......This is not a plea because I know it will not happen. You coming up with lies and distortions will give me either a two state system or recognition...Either will do...I am tired of waiting for you to come to your senses...

You are on of the most bitter , divisive and destructive individual on this forum.
How on earth can you accuse the 80 % of Cypriots as having taken YOUR country away from you. You are a twisted and rather pathetic individual .
You have offered absolutely NOTHING in the reconciliation efforts that genuine Cypriots from both sides are involved in. How dare you pretend that you represent the opinion of the moderates amongst T/Cs , you are by all account a Grey Wolf dedicated to the permanent division of this island .
Listen Plonker , most of the decent Cypriots have expressed their sorrow that fanatics and extremists from both sides have have caused so much suffering to our people , all apart from Zan the Hate Master .

You need to get out more or read more of what I write old drunk man.....What I have contributed is a balance to your greed in wanting the island for yourself.....You are the most danger to Cyprus because you have a tongue that drips blood just like Makarios. You speak sweetly to TCs but want nothing more than a Greek island and the marginalisation of the TC people...You are an assassin and a lier and not to be trusted.....