Cyprus-Forum.com

[mehmet]

Bananiot wrote:
I was watching a tv programme about Cypriots who fought with the allies in Italy. The presenter asked one of them to describe something that really struck out. The old soldier, without hesitation, immediately replied "the way the Poles killed Germans".

How can we be looking for justice in a war? War is all about taking lives and there is no way to feel at ease with this, even if the bad guys lose out.

It is true that the Turkish army went on a rampage, killing captives and spreading terror and fear in its passage. Yet, last April I attended the funeral of my fellow villager Kkitros who was laid to rest after so many years when his bones were eventually identified. Sevgul Uludag was there too. The nephew of Kkitros (a lawyer I believe) gave an unbelievably balanced speech, despite his sorrow. He told the large crowed that attended the funeral that the Turkish army started executing people after the mass graves were discovered in Aloa, Sandalaris and another village whose name I do not remember now. There, women and children were brutaly murdered by Greek Cypriots.

War brings the worse out of people. Everybody is capable of atrocities during war times. The Americans did it at Mi Lai in Vietnam and the cultured French behaved barbarously in Algeria. The Greek army in Asia minor was no better, according to Dido Soteriou (Matomena Chomata - also translated into Turkish. All must read this masterpiece). We took patients out of their hospital beds in 1963 and threw them down wells, after we put a bullet in their head.

It is the duty of all Cypriots to strive so that we and our childern and our childrens children do not have to go through this agony again. If we insist on counting who murdered more and who less we will be missing the point and end up like Piratis et al who think that justice is a matter of statistics. We need to bury the hatchet. We need peace here and now and now that a new effort is made we should be encouraging our leaders to move positively towards peace. The blame game feeds only the war monster. Even if things seem difficult we should never give up.

One final thought. There are bad people in both communities. We know who they are and it is up to us to cut their murdering hands. This can only be achieved if we get the peace we deserve. Otherwise we might as well feed the minautor of hate with more young blood.

Oracle wrote

Basically you are saying let's forget what happened because it was carried out by Turks.

A misconstrued death of one TC in 1963 is worth a special mention by you to remind us of our "crimes" ... without any back-up evidence ... yet thousands of war crimes by Turkey against GCs had best be "buried as a hatchet" and not be used in mere statistic games.

I wouldn't be surprised if your misogynistic tendencies aren't helping you sweep this article under the carpet as irrelevant details to the all-important goal of having your beloved Turkey on our soil....

It's quite clear what Bananiot is saying, if you can't see it I have highlighted it for you to make it easier for you.

[T_C]

By the way I have found LOADS of things related to the Cyprob in my grandads library today, including a book dated early 80s on Nicos Sampsons memoirs. Did GCs know it existed? (please answer)

I cant be asked to read the whole thing as its quite a big book and I dont have the patience to read the whole thing in Turkish but if deniz is interested I trust to share it with him if hes interested, as long as I get it back ofcourse...

[T_C]

So no serious comments about this article? Just a couple of sarcastic musings from a pair of morons who don't have the cojones to provide a logical counter-argument backed up by credible evidence?

How about some sort of denial from our resident extremists? Or maybe a bit of false symapthy from the 'non-aligned'? Better yet, why doesn't one of our lovely GC 'moderates' tell me that it's things like those in the article that mean we should sign over half the island to the Turks and rewrite the history books so we can be 'brothers' with them?

Maybe you're all busy flirting with bored housewives and thinking up words for those 'Game' threads.

We KNOW the anger you feel when you read stuff like that and most TCs will totally relate to your comment about being ''brothers'', the false sympathy and what have you...

You also put us through the same things Magnus, and Ive posted many articles like the one below only to get the same ''I dont give a shit'' response from most GCs (which usually comes in form of ''what good will come out of this post'' ).

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... resistance

You show no sympathy to us so I dont even know why youd even expect false sympathy in return.

I see the old gramophone record about 1963 is out again. What a load of nonsense from TC when he says "You also put us through the same things", presumably 63? and also voiced by others. No one in their right mind would find the events of 74 and 63 comparable. The events of 74 from the first landings were a deliberate and regrettably successful attempt at large scale terrorism of the vilest and most inhumane type as the journalist in the article above testifies. Such wide-scale animal-like behaviour by the foul Turkish Army and its supporters could only have been a result of encouragement and orders from above to murder, torture and rape and thereby create the terror to ethnically cleanse the north. Was this like 63 in the nature and scale of atrocities?

Bananiot says: ( forgive me for quoting in part - but it is a whole sentence)

"It is true that the Turkish army went on a rampage, killing captives and spreading terror and fear in its passage."

A "rampage" eh? What an weak and wholly inappropriate word to describe the most brutal episode of plain and simple whole-scale murder and terrorism that Europe had seen since WW2 and one inflicted on his own countrymen. A "passage" eh? What does this mean - a few nice neat corridors? No, it was systematic and country-wide. A Final Solution.

I hope I am not alone in having no time for these apologists and others with their attempts at revisionism of history.

Some would do well to bear in mind that the events and atrocities of 74 will be ingrained in to the Cypriot psyche and conscience for many generations to come. It will define Cy for years. Please consider not belittling the tragedy or qualifying it (let alone justifying it) to even the smallest extent.

(May all victims and their families of both communities find peace)

See what I mean, I rest my case!!! Go fuck yourself bill...

[denizaksulu]

By the way I have found LOADS of things related to the Cyprob in my grandads library today, including a book dated early 80s on Nicos Sampsons memoirs. Did GCs know it existed? (please answer)

I cant be asked to read the whole thing as its quite a big book and I dont have the patience to read the whole thing in Turkish but if deniz is interested I trust to share it with him if hes interested, as long as I get it back ofcourse...

Thanks for thinking of me. Please PM me.

[T_C]

And yes the nature WAS the same if not the scale. Then again since you like percentages and since we were 18% and you 82% I see NO DIFFERENCE!

Why dont you stop YOUR grammaphone and GET OVER 74 if its so easy to get over wrongs done to you. You lost 36% of the island in 74 so why havent you been able to stop all these years? Hmmmm???

Hypocrites...

[zan]

And yes the nature WAS the same if not the scale. Then again since you like percentages and since we were 18% and you 82% I see NO DIFFERENCE!

Why dont you stop YOUR grammaphone and GET OVER 74 if its so easy to get over wrongs done to you. You lost 36% of the island in 74 so why havent you been able to stop all these years? Hmmmm???

Hypocrites...

Take it easy T_C...Thats my job!!! Don't you think that Billy boy Boobit sounds very much like GR????

[humanist]

We have got used to it, but we're not prepared to allow you to give our country to Turkey. And for thatwe will fight forever, so give back what is not rightly yours and the battle is over

[Magnus]

So no serious comments about this article? Just a couple of sarcastic musings from a pair of morons who don't have the cojones to provide a logical counter-argument backed up by credible evidence?

How about some sort of denial from our resident extremists? Or maybe a bit of false symapthy from the 'non-aligned'? Better yet, why doesn't one of our lovely GC 'moderates' tell me that it's things like those in the article that mean we should sign over half the island to the Turks and rewrite the history books so we can be 'brothers' with them?

Maybe you're all busy flirting with bored housewives and thinking up words for those 'Game' threads.

Magnus, what is it that you are after, by posting the initial article in this thread? What was your intention or objective?

Hi Kifeas, I posted this article so that we can discuss the issue of the atrocities carried out by the Turkish army as I feel that this issue is often skimmed over. Whenever the issue is mentioned it seems to be the same arguments of 'you evil bastards' vs 'you deserve it for what you did to us' but very little beyond that.

I also wanted to see just how much all the various ideologies expressed on the forum stand up to such a graphic depiction of events. Sometimes it's easier to shoot our mouths off when time has apparently eroded our memories or when it has happened to 'faceless' people we don't know personally.

You will notice that I didn't even post any commentry or opinion at the start of this thread, just the article. You will also notice that the first reaction to the thread was a sarcastic comment and a couple of insults about my apparent 'lack of education' rather than a constructive criticism or opinion. I think this speaks volumes.

With regards to the comment you have quoted, I confess that it was written specifically to evoke some serious response. I felt that the responses to that point (bar that of Miltiades who attempted to keep it on track) were not treating the subject matter with sufficient respect while the lack of interest shown by others (despite over 100 views at the time) could perhaps signify a lack of conviction.

I know that looking at these events will not change the current status quo or have any significant effect. You might even say that it will accomplish nothing, but realistically what do any of the discussions on this forum accomplish?

[zan]

We have got used to it, but we're not prepared to allow you to give our country to Turkey. And for thatwe will fight forever, so give back what is not rightly yours and the battle is over

when you can convince your leaders to give us back our rights then maybe some sort of deal can be reached but until then go spin!!!!

[Viewpoint]

Both sides have suffered and these acts are dispicable and grotesque.

Shouldnt you GCs be prosecuting those that pushed you into the fire, you had 11 years to build a united Cyprus yet you choose to exclude and discriminate against TCs to the benefit of purely GCs. You must have known that your own actions would have exploded in your faces and the consequences of which you complain today would have occured, surely no community can be that naive or did you believe Turkey would never come to the rescue of the TCs. Remember the songs "you waited but they didnt arrive" yuo GCs used to taunt us? Are you really saying that you expected to be handled with kid gloves after your vile acts against TCs?

VP, thanks for your perspective. I feel that the issue here isn't so much to do with the motivation for the invasion (or intervention if you prefer) itself but the atrocities carried out by the Turkish military against the civilian population, particularly in the light that some of the atrocities happened after the agreed ceasefire.

I would be very interested to hear if you have any recollections of those times yourself, as I am concerned that depsite the obvious level of atrocities committed there doesn't seem to be anyone willing to admit that they were aware that these things were happening. I find it most difficult to believe that people in mixed villages were unaware of what was happening to their neighbours.

Considering that the perpetrators of such actions are the ones who are your 'lifejacket', how do you feel about them as individuals? Personally I don't think I could live amongst such men, regardless of their connection to me.

Magnus I was lucky enough not have had to lived through 1963 or 1974 but when I questioned my elders of why such ferocity was leashed out on the GCs I was told that the Turkish army was met with fierce fire on the beaches where they took big losses, a Turkish Officier was captured mutilated and hung with slogans that all Turks will be killed, poisitioned for all landing soldiers to see, thats when all hell broke loose and the ferocity of a trained army kicked in to gear and the unfortunate GC civilians paid the price. Do you not feel that the GCs who supported enosis and discriminaiton of my community have any responsiblity in causing a time bomb (1963-1974) to explode in your faces?