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The Sun - 8th August 1974

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Magnus » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:54 pm

mehmet wrote:

mehmet wrote:
Quote:


I'm glad we have got beyond the sarcasm.

I don't really think of it so much as an experiment, as experiments will either fail or succeed. I think of it more as an opportunity for everyone to assess 'the courage of their convictions'.

To be honest I am waiting for more responses as have an issue I want to raise with Bananiot's argument (will address this to him directly) and I am having difficulty in accepting that TCs in mixed villages were unaware of the atrocities carried out by the Turkish army. Naturally I don't doubt Deniz's word that he personally didn't know or the word of the other posters here, but I am concerned by indications that nobody was aware at all.


Magnus,

sure people in mixed villages know what happened. Even those from mixed villages living in Uk heard what happened from their relatives on the island. When I show someone close to me a picture of missing people from their village they didn't hesitate to tell me their fate. I wonder if there's anyone on the island who either doesn't know someone killed or know someone who committed the murder. I would guess that such a group are in the minority.
It should be clear - the question being asked is whether tcs in mixed villages knew of the attrocities as they were happening?


What do you think?

Some must have known first hand, some second hand. I'm told the Turkish Cypriots in Komi Kebir fled to a nearby Turkish Cypriot village for their own safety.


Hi Mehmet, this is what I thought too though I was waiting for someone to confirm it rather than state it myself. Although I have some evidence to prove that there were TCs who took advantage of the situation and joined in, I would say that these people were a very small group and in no way representative of the average TC civilians. I don't blame the average TC civilian for any of these atrocities, I blame the Turkish army.

Given the nature of the action carried out by the Turkish military (aerial bombardments of villages etc) it seems to me that there will have been at least some TC civilian casualties. How could the Turkish forces know that their napalm would only hit GCs? And why use it against civilians anyway?
Likewise, if some TCs attempted to help their GC neighbours I doubt that the Turkish army will have shown much mercy.

Add to this the fact that the atrocities started prety much as soon as the Turkish forces had landed, it gives me the clear impression that this was not a 'peace operation' at all. I can understand conflict between armed combatants, but the brutality inflicted on civilians points to a far more sinister purpose.
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Postby Floda » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:57 pm

miltiades wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
miltiades wrote:EVENTS AS PER WARS OF THE WORLD.
I beleive that few of us would dispute the following sequence of events and ever fewer will dispute the fact that had it not been for the Junta ordering the coup , and had Makarios not underestimated the stupidity of the Junta , Turkey would not have invaded. I have always maintained that the catastrophe that developed was as a result of the Greek Junta and I shall always hold them and their fascist ideas responsible , contrary to popular folklore that America was to blame.
During the spring of 1974, Cypriot intelligence found evidence that EOKA B was planning a coup and was being supplied, controlled, and funded by the military government in Athens. EOKA B was banned, but its operations continued underground. Early in July, Makarios wrote to the president of Greece demanding that the remaining 650 Greek officers assigned to the National Guard be withdrawn. He also accused the junta of plotting against his life and against the government of Cyprus. Makarios sent his letter (which was released to the public) to the Greek president on July 2, 1974; the reply came thirteen days later, not in the form of a letter but in an order from Athens to the Cypriot National Guard to overthrow its commander in chief and take control of the island.

Makarios narrowly escaped death in the attack by the Greek-led National Guard. He fled the presidential palace and went to Paphos. A British helicopter took him the Sovereign Base Area at Akrotiri, from where he went to London. Several days later, Makarios addressed a meeting of the UN Security Council, where he was accepted as the legal president of the Republic of Cyprus.

In the meantime, the notorious EOKA terrorist Nicos Sampson was declared provisional president of the new government. It was obvious to Ankara that Athens was behind the coup, and major elements of the Turkish armed forces went on alert. Turkey had made similar moves in 1964 and 1967, but had not invaded. At the same time, Turkish prime minister Bülent Ecevit flew to London to elicit British aid in a joint effort in Cyprus, as called for in the 1959 Treaty of Guarantee, but the British were either unwilling or unprepared and declined to take action as a guarantor power. The United States took no action to bolster the Makarios government, but Joseph J. Sisco, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, went to London and the eastern Mediterranean to stave off the impending Turkish invasion and the war between Greece and Turkey that might follow. The Turks demanded removal of Nicos Sampson and the Greek officers from the National Guard and a binding guarantee of Cypriot independence. Sampson, of course, was expendable to the Athens regime, but Sisco could get an agreement only to reassign the 650 Greek officers.

As Sisco negotiated in Athens, Turkish invasion ships were already at sea. A last-minute reversal might have been possible had the Greeks made concessions, but they did not. The intervention began early on July 20, 1974. Three days later the Greek junta collapsed in Athens, Sampson resigned in Nicosia, and the threat of war between NATO allies was over, but the Turkish army was on Cyprus.

Konstantinos Karamanlis, in self-imposed exile in France since 1963, was called back, to head the Greek government once more. Clerides was sworn in as acting president of the Republic of Cyprus, and the foreign ministers of the guarantor powers met in Geneva on July 25 to discuss the military situation on the island. Prime Minister Ecevit publicly welcomed the change of government in Greece and seemed genuinely interested in eliminating the tensions that had brought the two countries so close to war. Nevertheless, during the truce that was arranged, Turkish forces continued to take territory, to improve their positions, and to build up their supplies of war matériel.

A second conference in Geneva began on August 10, with Clerides and Denktas as the Cypriot representatives. Denktas proposed a bizonal federation, with Turkish Cypriots controlling 34 percent of island. When this proposal was rejected, the Turkish foreign minister proposed a Turkish Cypriot zone in the northern part of the island and five Turkish Cypriot enclaves elsewhere, all of which would amount once again to 34 percent of the island's area. Clerides asked for a recess of thirty-six to forty-eight hours to consult with the government in Nicosia and with Makarios in London. His request was refused, and early on August 14 the second phase of the Turkish intervention began. Two days later, after having seized 37 percent of the island above what the Turks called the "Atilla Line," the line that ran from Morphou Bay in the northwest to Famagusta (Gazimagusa) in the east, the Turks ordered a ceasefire.

The de facto partition of Cyprus resulting from the Turkish invasion, or intervention, as the Turks preferred to call their military action, caused much suffering in addition to the thousands of dead, many of whom were unaccounted for even years later. An estimated one-third of the population of each ethnic community had to flee their homes. The island's economy was devastated.

Efforts were undertaken immediately to remedy the effects of the catastrophe. Intensive government economic planning and intervention on both sides of the island soon improved living standards and allowed the construction of housing for refugees. Both communities benefited greatly from the expansion of the tourist industry, which brought millions of foreign visitors to the island during the 1980s. The economic success of the Republic of Cyprus was significant enough to seem almost miraculous. Within just a few years, the refugees had housing and were integrated in the bustling economy, and Greek Cypriots enjoyed a West European standard of living. Turkish Cypriots did not do as well, but, working against an international embargo imposed by the Republic of Cyprus and benefiting from extensive Turkish aid, they managed to ensure a decent standard of living for all members of their community--a standard of living, in fact, that was higher than that of Turkey. Both communities established government agencies to provide public assistance to those who needed it and built modern education systems extending to the university level.


Miltiades,

Please re-evaluate your nonsense.

The Cyprus Tragedy had the following co-conspirators:
1) USA,
2) Greece,
3) Turkey, and
4) A significant portion of Cypriot society (EOKA B).

The ultimate aim of the coup was to facilitate double union of Cyprus with Greece and Turkey. It was engineered by The CIA in order to enslave Cyprus under 2 NATO aligned nations and thus prevent the AKEL influenced Cypriot people from developing closer ties with The Soviet Union. NATO feared the prospect of any Soviet influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and acted accordingly by destroying Cyprus as a nation.

The GCs and TCs were mere pawns in what was a high stake Cold War battle between The USA and The Soviet Union. In the end, the USA won this battle, by cutting in 2 the island of Cyprus.

You should read "The Cyprus Conspiracy" by Brendan O'Mally.

Now, if you do not mind, please refrain from posting such Bollocks as above. I am way too busy ATM to be dealing with your ignorance as I have tests to prepare for. :roll:

I will be back by Sat.

Don't bother mate , stupid comments we get plenty without you adding more !!
The culprits were the Greek Junta FULL STOP !!




Quite amusing to see that the first part of this exchange says "Miltiades Wrote" when in fact he has obviously "Cut and Pasted" it from somewhere and doubtless hasn't read it [as is usual].

The response of Paphitis is absolutely spot on and having read some of the previous exchanges between these two members, one wonders why an intelligent man like Paphitis bothers to respond, frustration I suspect.

The final comment, IS the work of Miltiades and once again illustrates the extraordinary blindness to reality that this unbelievably inadequate member [in debate] is capable of.

God help us all if such a one as he should ever be taken seriously by the Turks, Cyprus will truly be in the cart.

For goodness sake Miltiades, wake up to reality, the wolves are howling at your door. :twisted:
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Postby Nikitas » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:02 pm

"The fact remains that had Makarios followed the advise of most of the world and not tried to bulldoze us into ENOSIS "

You forget that the Greek junta tried several times to assassinate him precisely because he was AGAINST enosis. He woke up too late, maybe, but the fact is that after 1967 he was for independence. You have a whole bunch of things mixed up.

And there is the point, the Greek side has changed its goals. The Turkish side remains fixed on partition and separation as it was way back in the 50s. And if that is the starting point for entering into a BBF deal, we must understand that these fixed Turkish goals necessitate awareness and appropriate planning.
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Postby denizaksulu » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:34 pm

Nikitas wrote:"The fact remains that had Makarios followed the advise of most of the world and not tried to bulldoze us into ENOSIS "

You forget that the Greek junta tried several times to assassinate him precisely because he was AGAINST enosis. He woke up too late, maybe, but the fact is that after 1967 he was for independence. You have a whole bunch of things mixed up.

And there is the point, the Greek side has changed its goals. The Turkish side remains fixed on partition and separation as it was way back in the 50s. And if that is the starting point for entering into a BBF deal, we must understand that these fixed Turkish goals necessitate awareness and appropriate planning.



Nikitas, we know Makarios had changrd his tune when he made his famous quote, ' desirable vs feasible'. But there were still elements with power (eg. Greece) who had still dreams of Enosis. Whilst Enosis was still alive and kicking in the Greek world, the TCs were never going to let it happen. Obviously the only deterrent was the ideas or threat of 'Partition'. As we saw, nobody took heed till it was too late. Alas.
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Postby Oracle » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:43 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Nikitas wrote:"The fact remains that had Makarios followed the advise of most of the world and not tried to bulldoze us into ENOSIS "

You forget that the Greek junta tried several times to assassinate him precisely because he was AGAINST enosis. He woke up too late, maybe, but the fact is that after 1967 he was for independence. You have a whole bunch of things mixed up.

And there is the point, the Greek side has changed its goals. The Turkish side remains fixed on partition and separation as it was way back in the 50s. And if that is the starting point for entering into a BBF deal, we must understand that these fixed Turkish goals necessitate awareness and appropriate planning.



Nikitas, we know Makarios had changrd his tune when he made his famous quote, ' desirable vs feasible'. But there were still elements with power (eg. Greece) who had still dreams of Enosis. Whilst Enosis was still alive and kicking in the Greek world, the TCs were never going to let it happen. Obviously the only deterrent was the ideas or threat of 'Partition'. As we saw, nobody took heed till it was too late. Alas.


The few dictating to the many ....

So what is your ongoing excuse now that Enosis is not "alive and kicking"?
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Postby denizaksulu » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:53 pm

Oracle wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Nikitas wrote:"The fact remains that had Makarios followed the advise of most of the world and not tried to bulldoze us into ENOSIS "

You forget that the Greek junta tried several times to assassinate him precisely because he was AGAINST enosis. He woke up too late, maybe, but the fact is that after 1967 he was for independence. You have a whole bunch of things mixed up.

And there is the point, the Greek side has changed its goals. The Turkish side remains fixed on partition and separation as it was way back in the 50s. And if that is the starting point for entering into a BBF deal, we must understand that these fixed Turkish goals necessitate awareness and appropriate planning.



Nikitas, we know Makarios had changrd his tune when he made his famous quote, ' desirable vs feasible'. But there were still elements with power (eg. Greece) who had still dreams of Enosis. Whilst Enosis was still alive and kicking in the Greek world, the TCs were never going to let it happen. Obviously the only deterrent was the ideas or threat of 'Partition'. As we saw, nobody took heed till it was too late. Alas.


The few dictating to the many ....

So what is your ongoing excuse now that Enosis is not "alive and kicking"?



My opinion? To be honest. Not many excuses. As I have said. Too late.

Thats another thread.
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Postby ttoli » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:34 pm

No doubt attrocities were carried out by both sides, but are you seriously giving credability to The Sun??? a rag of page 3 and Dear Deirdre(Couldn't you get the Sunday Sport then?).
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Postby Magnus » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:37 pm

ttoli wrote:No doubt attrocities were carried out by both sides, but are you seriously giving credability to The Sun??? a rag of page 3 and Dear Deirdre(Couldn't you get the Sunday Sport then?).


Hello ttoli, I'll give you the same response I gave Medman yesterday when he made the same objection:

The Sun's modern reputation (and David Beckham, Jade Goody et al) have absolutely no relevance on the accuracy of the article. The point is that this article was written by a British reporter for a well-known newspaper that has absolutely no connection to Greek Cypriots or the Republic of Cyprus. I didn't want to be accused of posting 'propaganda' written by Greek Cypriots.

I am surprised that you can dismiss it so readily, but I can assure you there is more to come form other sources so stick around if you are interested.
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Postby ttoli » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:07 pm

Magnus wrote:
ttoli wrote:No doubt attrocities were carried out by both sides, but are you seriously giving credability to The Sun??? a rag of page 3 and Dear Deirdre(Couldn't you get the Sunday Sport then?).


Hello ttoli, I'll give you the same response I gave Medman yesterday when he made the same objection:

The Sun's modern reputation (and David Beckham, Jade Goody et al) have absolutely no relevance on the accuracy of the article. The point is that this article was written by a British reporter for a well-known newspaper that has absolutely no connection to Greek Cypriots or the Republic of Cyprus. I didn't want to be accused of posting 'propaganda' written by Greek Cypriots.

I am surprised that you can dismiss it so readily, but I can assure you there is more to come form other sources so stick around if you are interested.
And I can quite readily post credible reporting from the TC perspective, as I stated in my original post'NO DOUBT ATTROCITIES WERE CARRIED OUT BY BOTH SIDES'.Why do you and others on this forum keep raking it up?, will it do any good?(NO), can you change the past?(NO).
You appear a bit more open than others, so answer me this, Are you quite happy for future generations to grow with this inbuilt hatred of all things Turkish?
You are glossing over one very important point here, by and large many Journalists were prevented from gaining access to TC's within the enforced Enclaves.
Friends of my Fathers that served their national service here, tell how they had to stand by and do nothing when TC's were being hassled or bullied by Police or National guard.
Without wishing to offend you, most GC come across that they did nothing wrong what so ever to antagonise their fellow TC's, And Turkey just Interveened, whilst in reality the bully got a bloody nose and is still whinging about it 34 years down the line.
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Postby Oracle » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:25 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Oracle wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Nikitas wrote:"The fact remains that had Makarios followed the advise of most of the world and not tried to bulldoze us into ENOSIS "

You forget that the Greek junta tried several times to assassinate him precisely because he was AGAINST enosis. He woke up too late, maybe, but the fact is that after 1967 he was for independence. You have a whole bunch of things mixed up.

And there is the point, the Greek side has changed its goals. The Turkish side remains fixed on partition and separation as it was way back in the 50s. And if that is the starting point for entering into a BBF deal, we must understand that these fixed Turkish goals necessitate awareness and appropriate planning.



Nikitas, we know Makarios had changrd his tune when he made his famous quote, ' desirable vs feasible'. But there were still elements with power (eg. Greece) who had still dreams of Enosis. Whilst Enosis was still alive and kicking in the Greek world, the TCs were never going to let it happen. Obviously the only deterrent was the ideas or threat of 'Partition'. As we saw, nobody took heed till it was too late. Alas.


The few dictating to the many ....

So what is your ongoing excuse now that Enosis is not "alive and kicking"?



My opinion? To be honest. Not many excuses. As I have said. Too late.
Thats another thread.


Sorry ... you can't have it!

But fatalism would be the worst betrayal of all. The acceptance, the legitimization of what was done - those things must be repudiated. Such a refusal has a value beyond Cyprus in showing that acquiescence in injustice is not 'realism'. Once the injustice has been set down and described, and called by its right name, acquiescence in it becomes impossible. That is why one writes about Cyprus in sorrow but more - much more - in anger."

Christopher Hitchens, 'Cyprus: Hostage to History', May 1997
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