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The Sun - 8th August 1974

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Oracle » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:29 am

bill cobbett wrote:
zan wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
zan wrote:
Magnus wrote:Thanks Zan, I just have a couple of questions about these articles.

It is clear from the first article that the Turkish forces were winning the battle (as we would expect) and that it wouldn't last very long. Given this fact, how can anyone justify the atrocities committed by the Turkish troops as 'acts of war' (as Bananiot stated) when the GC/Greek forces were clearly not much of a threat and the conflict was hardly a full scale 'war'? And shouldn't the Turkish forces have just put down the coupists and left the civilians alone?

Also, If we are to consider these events as a declaration of war from Turkey to Cyprus, then how can anyone claim that it was a 'peace operation' intended to protect TC civilians? Clearly it is an indication of a long-term expansionist policy as there is a very definite line between a declaration of war and a declared peace operation in line with Turkey's guarantor rights.

As for the Greek navy, perhaps they were there to support the coupists or even protect the GC civilians from the Turkish forces. Either way they weren't successful. Are there any accounts of the Greek forces harming TC civilians rather than fight the Turkish forces?


........I will answer the bit about Turkey winning the war but will have toget back to you on the rest as I am tired now from laughing at Billy boy Boobit...Seriously though..I have to go to bed........


Don't forget to sleep on the bed not under it.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


HUH!!!!!!! Stick to what you know darling.....Humour is not your thing....


Goodnight Zan, goodnight Magnus, goodnight our O et al, oh and a very good night to our guest poster.


Goodnight from Oracle et al. :lol:
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Postby zan » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:29 am

Get Real! wrote:Now as to why GR “intervened” in this thread:


I am APPALED at all the USELESS “Greek Cypriots” unable to properly respond to Zan’s manipulation of history of what is a relatively elementary aspect of the Cyprus problem; the illegality of the second phase of the invasion.

Those of you NOT prepared to research so as to properly arm yourselves in support of the RoC should GET OUT of the CyProb section altogether and that includes you Oracle, Magnus, and others.

No regards to any of you useless goofballs! :evil:



The legitimacy of the Turkish intervention was also confirmed, among others, by the Council of Europe Resolution 573 (1974) and even by the Athens Court of Appeal.

In its decision No. 2658/79 dated March 21, 1979 it held that:"The Turkish military intervention in Cyprus, which was carried out in accordance with the Zurich and London Agreements was legal. Turkey, as one of the Guarantor Powers, had the right to fulfill her obligations. The real culprits…are the Greek officers who engineered and staged a coup and prepared the conditions for this intervention."




:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Postby miltiades » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:45 am

zan wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Magnus wrote:Thanks Zan, I just have a couple of questions about these articles.

It is clear from the first article that the Turkish forces were winning the battle (as we would expect) and that it wouldn't last very long. Given this fact, how can anyone justify the atrocities committed by the Turkish troops as 'acts of war' (as Bananiot stated) when the GC/Greek forces were clearly not much of a threat and the conflict was hardly a full scale 'war'? And shouldn't the Turkish forces have just put down the coupists and left the civilians alone?

Also, If we are to consider these events as a declaration of war from Turkey to Cyprus, then how can anyone claim that it was a 'peace operation' intended to protect TC civilians? Clearly it is an indication of a long-term expansionist policy as there is a very definite line between a declaration of war and a declared peace operation in line with Turkey's guarantor rights.

As for the Greek navy, perhaps they were there to support the coupists or even protect the GC civilians from the Turkish forces. Either way they weren't successful. Are there any accounts of the Greek forces harming TC civilians rather than fight the Turkish forces?


I will answer the bit about Turkey winning the war but will have toget back to you on the rest as I am tired now from laughing at Billy boy Boobit...Seriously though..I have to go to bed.


There is nothing clear about the war as to who was winning what and who was a coupist and who was not. The Greeks thought that Turkey was not equipped for war and many have written since that if the Greeks had been more organised they could have seen Turkey off. You have to appreciate the speed at which everything was going and the resistance that Turkey met up with. The landing resulted in the heaviest losses for Turkey and was not easy. The bombs that fell were indiscriminate and we can even see that in todays bombing raids that are much more accurate than those days. you also have to accept the fact that quite a lot of the atrocities that were blamed on the Turks were in fact committed by the coupist but no one here seems to want to admit that part. 6000 GCs died in 1974 and all blamed on the Turks.....So what happened to those killed and raped by the coupists. 10,000 Makarios supporters were to be killed by the cooupists...How many were in fact killed. that is my problem with Greek propaganda........

You appear to be writing your own version of history as seen in the eyes of an extremist , you are the most belligerent person on this forum whose only goal is the permanent division of this island and more so the annexation of the occupied part of Cyprus by Turkey. We are all familiar with your devisory posts , in fact the forum members can see right through you. Your "political" and historical analysis is as valid as the statement that you made of me being an ASSASIN. This in itself is proof of how hollow and desperate you have become in your arguments.
It gives me great pleasure to note that the T/Cs are not taken in by your utter nonsense .
You are a hollow , bitter and twisted individual who has the audacity to say that the island of Cyprus was STOLEN from you , by you I mean the Grey Wolves that you are no doubt a firm supporter. Who on earth would make such a nonsensical statement that the island of Cyprus has been stolen from the extremists !!
Only you mate .
Here is what you should stick to from now on : Tpap -ENOSIS- Genocide-
EOKA -10 THOUSAND G/CS KILLED BY THE COUPISTS - DRUNK OLD MAN !!
What a Plonker !!
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Postby miltiades » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:58 am

Get Real! wrote:Now as to why GR “intervened” in this thread:


I am APPALED at all the USELESS “Greek Cypriots” unable to properly respond to Zan’s manipulation of history of what is a relatively elementary aspect of the Cyprus problem; the illegality of the second phase of the invasion.

Those of you NOT prepared to research so as to properly arm yourselves in support of the RoC should GET OUT of the CyProb section altogether and that includes you Oracle, Magnus, and others.

No regards to any of you useless goofballs! :evil:

Welcome back GR .
Zan will not respond to any challenge based on research of historical events , the only historical events that he supports are the ones that he and the other extremists consider as fact . It is pointless to enter into an exchange of historical realities since he can only see what he has decided is the correct set of events. To present him with counter research is to send him the message that he is a serious contributor to the political forum, he is nothing of the sort , he is devise , belligerent and ludicrous .
He consider my self to be an Assassin !!! He will persist with his laughable interpretation of events purely on the basis that it feeds his insatiable hatred for the G/Cs , he is hostile to any action that might lead to our island being unified since he wants to achieve his stated objective of becoming a part of the New Modern World that he so aspires to join.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:12 am


mehmet wrote:
Quote:


I'm glad we have got beyond the sarcasm.

I don't really think of it so much as an experiment, as experiments will either fail or succeed. I think of it more as an opportunity for everyone to assess 'the courage of their convictions'.

To be honest I am waiting for more responses as have an issue I want to raise with Bananiot's argument (will address this to him directly) and I am having difficulty in accepting that TCs in mixed villages were unaware of the atrocities carried out by the Turkish army. Naturally I don't doubt Deniz's word that he personally didn't know or the word of the other posters here, but I am concerned by indications that nobody was aware at all.


Magnus,

sure people in mixed villages know what happened. Even those from mixed villages living in Uk heard what happened from their relatives on the island. When I show someone close to me a picture of missing people from their village they didn't hesitate to tell me their fate. I wonder if there's anyone on the island who either doesn't know someone killed or know someone who committed the murder. I would guess that such a group are in the minority.
It should be clear - the question being asked is whether tcs in mixed villages knew of the attrocities as they were happening?


What do you think?

Some must have known first hand, some second hand. I'm told the Turkish Cypriots in Komi Kebir fled to a nearby Turkish Cypriot village for their own safety.
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Postby zan » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:23 am

miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Magnus wrote:Thanks Zan, I just have a couple of questions about these articles.

It is clear from the first article that the Turkish forces were winning the battle (as we would expect) and that it wouldn't last very long. Given this fact, how can anyone justify the atrocities committed by the Turkish troops as 'acts of war' (as Bananiot stated) when the GC/Greek forces were clearly not much of a threat and the conflict was hardly a full scale 'war'? And shouldn't the Turkish forces have just put down the coupists and left the civilians alone?

Also, If we are to consider these events as a declaration of war from Turkey to Cyprus, then how can anyone claim that it was a 'peace operation' intended to protect TC civilians? Clearly it is an indication of a long-term expansionist policy as there is a very definite line between a declaration of war and a declared peace operation in line with Turkey's guarantor rights.

As for the Greek navy, perhaps they were there to support the coupists or even protect the GC civilians from the Turkish forces. Either way they weren't successful. Are there any accounts of the Greek forces harming TC civilians rather than fight the Turkish forces?


I will answer the bit about Turkey winning the war but will have toget back to you on the rest as I am tired now from laughing at Billy boy Boobit...Seriously though..I have to go to bed.


There is nothing clear about the war as to who was winning what and who was a coupist and who was not. The Greeks thought that Turkey was not equipped for war and many have written since that if the Greeks had been more organised they could have seen Turkey off. You have to appreciate the speed at which everything was going and the resistance that Turkey met up with. The landing resulted in the heaviest losses for Turkey and was not easy. The bombs that fell were indiscriminate and we can even see that in todays bombing raids that are much more accurate than those days. you also have to accept the fact that quite a lot of the atrocities that were blamed on the Turks were in fact committed by the coupist but no one here seems to want to admit that part. 6000 GCs died in 1974 and all blamed on the Turks.....So what happened to those killed and raped by the coupists. 10,000 Makarios supporters were to be killed by the cooupists...How many were in fact killed. that is my problem with Greek propaganda........

You appear to be writing your own version of history as seen in the eyes of an extremist , you are the most belligerent person on this forum whose only goal is the permanent division of this island and more so the annexation of the occupied part of Cyprus by Turkey. We are all familiar with your devisory posts , in fact the forum members can see right through you. Your "political" and historical analysis is as valid as the statement that you made of me being an ASSASIN. This in itself is proof of how hollow and desperate you have become in your arguments.
It gives me great pleasure to note that the T/Cs are not taken in by your utter nonsense .
You are a hollow , bitter and twisted individual who has the audacity to say that the island of Cyprus was STOLEN from you , by you I mean the Grey Wolves that you are no doubt a firm supporter. Who on earth would make such a nonsensical statement that the island of Cyprus has been stolen from the extremists !!
Only you mate .
Here is what you should stick to from now on : Tpap -ENOSIS- Genocide-
EOKA -10 THOUSAND G/CS KILLED BY THE COUPISTS - DRUNK OLD MAN !!
What a Plonker !!



don't take it to heart old man......There are extremists here and you are part of them. You have no intention of seeing a fair deal on the island but offer us second class status in our own country under Greek rule....You try to justify ENOSIS with some twisted version of democracy in that the majority has a right to do what ever the hell it wants and if not murder then "persuade" TCs to leave the island so you can claim more of it. You have no idea of reality and what is needed in order to save the lives and loves of the TC people and quite frankly do not care. fact has no meaning for you but might has. You think that politically you are strong and that is all that matters. You openly invite all that do not agree with you to leave Cyprus, especially TCs. You have taken on board Makarios ' values and are working for only one people in Cyprus and intend to get rid of the rest, us the TCs. You are representing no one but the GCs as your leaders have done since the Zurich agreement was signed. In short an assassin.
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Postby zan » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:25 am

miltiades wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Now as to why GR “intervened” in this thread:


I am APPALED at all the USELESS “Greek Cypriots” unable to properly respond to Zan’s manipulation of history of what is a relatively elementary aspect of the Cyprus problem; the illegality of the second phase of the invasion.

Those of you NOT prepared to research so as to properly arm yourselves in support of the RoC should GET OUT of the CyProb section altogether and that includes you Oracle, Magnus, and others.

No regards to any of you useless goofballs! :evil:

Welcome back GR .
Zan will not respond to any challenge based on research of historical events , the only historical events that he supports are the ones that he and the other extremists consider as fact . It is pointless to enter into an exchange of historical realities since he can only see what he has decided is the correct set of events. To present him with counter research is to send him the message that he is a serious contributor to the political forum, he is nothing of the sort , he is devise , belligerent and ludicrous .
He consider my self to be an Assassin !!! He will persist with his laughable interpretation of events purely on the basis that it feeds his insatiable hatred for the G/Cs , he is hostile to any action that might lead to our island being unified since he wants to achieve his stated objective of becoming a part of the New Modern World that he so aspires to join.



Facts seem to be your enemy Miltiades Makarios........You are presented with them and just like a child you ignore the ones you do not like. It does not work that way my deluded friend... :lol: :lol:
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Postby miltiades » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:26 am

EVENTS AS PER WARS OF THE WORLD.
I beleive that few of us would dispute the following sequence of events and ever fewer will dispute the fact that had it not been for the Junta ordering the coup , and had Makarios not underestimated the stupidity of the Junta , Turkey would not have invaded. I have always maintained that the catastrophe that developed was as a result of the Greek Junta and I shall always hold them and their fascist ideas responsible , contrary to popular folklore that America was to blame.

During the spring of 1974, Cypriot intelligence found evidence that EOKA B was planning a coup and was being supplied, controlled, and funded by the military government in Athens. EOKA B was banned, but its operations continued underground. Early in July, Makarios wrote to the president of Greece demanding that the remaining 650 Greek officers assigned to the National Guard be withdrawn. He also accused the junta of plotting against his life and against the government of Cyprus. Makarios sent his letter (which was released to the public) to the Greek president on July 2, 1974; the reply came thirteen days later, not in the form of a letter but in an order from Athens to the Cypriot National Guard to overthrow its commander in chief and take control of the island.

Makarios narrowly escaped death in the attack by the Greek-led National Guard. He fled the presidential palace and went to Paphos. A British helicopter took him the Sovereign Base Area at Akrotiri, from where he went to London. Several days later, Makarios addressed a meeting of the UN Security Council, where he was accepted as the legal president of the Republic of Cyprus.

In the meantime, the notorious EOKA terrorist Nicos Sampson was declared provisional president of the new government. It was obvious to Ankara that Athens was behind the coup, and major elements of the Turkish armed forces went on alert. Turkey had made similar moves in 1964 and 1967, but had not invaded. At the same time, Turkish prime minister Bülent Ecevit flew to London to elicit British aid in a joint effort in Cyprus, as called for in the 1959 Treaty of Guarantee, but the British were either unwilling or unprepared and declined to take action as a guarantor power. The United States took no action to bolster the Makarios government, but Joseph J. Sisco, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, went to London and the eastern Mediterranean to stave off the impending Turkish invasion and the war between Greece and Turkey that might follow. The Turks demanded removal of Nicos Sampson and the Greek officers from the National Guard and a binding guarantee of Cypriot independence. Sampson, of course, was expendable to the Athens regime, but Sisco could get an agreement only to reassign the 650 Greek officers.

As Sisco negotiated in Athens, Turkish invasion ships were already at sea. A last-minute reversal might have been possible had the Greeks made concessions, but they did not. The intervention began early on July 20, 1974. Three days later the Greek junta collapsed in Athens, Sampson resigned in Nicosia, and the threat of war between NATO allies was over, but the Turkish army was on Cyprus.

Konstantinos Karamanlis, in self-imposed exile in France since 1963, was called back, to head the Greek government once more. Clerides was sworn in as acting president of the Republic of Cyprus, and the foreign ministers of the guarantor powers met in Geneva on July 25 to discuss the military situation on the island. Prime Minister Ecevit publicly welcomed the change of government in Greece and seemed genuinely interested in eliminating the tensions that had brought the two countries so close to war. Nevertheless, during the truce that was arranged, Turkish forces continued to take territory, to improve their positions, and to build up their supplies of war matériel.

A second conference in Geneva began on August 10, with Clerides and Denktas as the Cypriot representatives. Denktas proposed a bizonal federation, with Turkish Cypriots controlling 34 percent of island. When this proposal was rejected, the Turkish foreign minister proposed a Turkish Cypriot zone in the northern part of the island and five Turkish Cypriot enclaves elsewhere, all of which would amount once again to 34 percent of the island's area. Clerides asked for a recess of thirty-six to forty-eight hours to consult with the government in Nicosia and with Makarios in London. His request was refused, and early on August 14 the second phase of the Turkish intervention began. Two days later, after having seized 37 percent of the island above what the Turks called the "Atilla Line," the line that ran from Morphou Bay in the northwest to Famagusta (Gazimagusa) in the east, the Turks ordered a ceasefire.

The de facto partition of Cyprus resulting from the Turkish invasion, or intervention, as the Turks preferred to call their military action, caused much suffering in addition to the thousands of dead, many of whom were unaccounted for even years later. An estimated one-third of the population of each ethnic community had to flee their homes. The island's economy was devastated.

Efforts were undertaken immediately to remedy the effects of the catastrophe. Intensive government economic planning and intervention on both sides of the island soon improved living standards and allowed the construction of housing for refugees. Both communities benefited greatly from the expansion of the tourist industry, which brought millions of foreign visitors to the island during the 1980s. The economic success of the Republic of Cyprus was significant enough to seem almost miraculous. Within just a few years, the refugees had housing and were integrated in the bustling economy, and Greek Cypriots enjoyed a West European standard of living. Turkish Cypriots did not do as well, but, working against an international embargo imposed by the Republic of Cyprus and benefiting from extensive Turkish aid, they managed to ensure a decent standard of living for all members of their community--a standard of living, in fact, that was higher than that of Turkey. Both communities established government agencies to provide public assistance to those who needed it and built modern education systems extending to the university level.
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Postby zan » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:39 am

miltiades wrote:EVENTS AS PER WARS OF THE WORLD.
I beleive that few of us would dispute the following sequence of events and ever fewer will dispute the fact that had it not been for the Junta ordering the coup , and had Makarios not underestimated the stupidity of the Junta , Turkey would not have invaded. I have always maintained that the catastrophe that developed was as a result of the Greek Junta and I shall always hold them and their fascist ideas responsible , contrary to popular folklore that America was to blame.

During the spring of 1974, Cypriot intelligence found evidence that EOKA B was planning a coup and was being supplied, controlled, and funded by the military government in Athens. EOKA B was banned, but its operations continued underground. Early in July, Makarios wrote to the president of Greece demanding that the remaining 650 Greek officers assigned to the National Guard be withdrawn. He also accused the junta of plotting against his life and against the government of Cyprus. Makarios sent his letter (which was released to the public) to the Greek president on July 2, 1974; the reply came thirteen days later, not in the form of a letter but in an order from Athens to the Cypriot National Guard to overthrow its commander in chief and take control of the island.

Makarios narrowly escaped death in the attack by the Greek-led National Guard. He fled the presidential palace and went to Paphos. A British helicopter took him the Sovereign Base Area at Akrotiri, from where he went to London. Several days later, Makarios addressed a meeting of the UN Security Council, where he was accepted as the legal president of the Republic of Cyprus.

In the meantime, the notorious EOKA terrorist Nicos Sampson was declared provisional president of the new government. It was obvious to Ankara that Athens was behind the coup, and major elements of the Turkish armed forces went on alert. Turkey had made similar moves in 1964 and 1967, but had not invaded. At the same time, Turkish prime minister Bülent Ecevit flew to London to elicit British aid in a joint effort in Cyprus, as called for in the 1959 Treaty of Guarantee, but the British were either unwilling or unprepared and declined to take action as a guarantor power. The United States took no action to bolster the Makarios government, but Joseph J. Sisco, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, went to London and the eastern Mediterranean to stave off the impending Turkish invasion and the war between Greece and Turkey that might follow. The Turks demanded removal of Nicos Sampson and the Greek officers from the National Guard and a binding guarantee of Cypriot independence. Sampson, of course, was expendable to the Athens regime, but Sisco could get an agreement only to reassign the 650 Greek officers.

As Sisco negotiated in Athens, Turkish invasion ships were already at sea. A last-minute reversal might have been possible had the Greeks made concessions, but they did not. The intervention began early on July 20, 1974. Three days later the Greek junta collapsed in Athens, Sampson resigned in Nicosia, and the threat of war between NATO allies was over, but the Turkish army was on Cyprus.

Konstantinos Karamanlis, in self-imposed exile in France since 1963, was called back, to head the Greek government once more. Clerides was sworn in as acting president of the Republic of Cyprus, and the foreign ministers of the guarantor powers met in Geneva on July 25 to discuss the military situation on the island. Prime Minister Ecevit publicly welcomed the change of government in Greece and seemed genuinely interested in eliminating the tensions that had brought the two countries so close to war. Nevertheless, during the truce that was arranged, Turkish forces continued to take territory, to improve their positions, and to build up their supplies of war matériel.

A second conference in Geneva began on August 10, with Clerides and Denktas as the Cypriot representatives. Denktas proposed a bizonal federation, with Turkish Cypriots controlling 34 percent of island. When this proposal was rejected, the Turkish foreign minister proposed a Turkish Cypriot zone in the northern part of the island and five Turkish Cypriot enclaves elsewhere, all of which would amount once again to 34 percent of the island's area. Clerides asked for a recess of thirty-six to forty-eight hours to consult with the government in Nicosia and with Makarios in London. His request was refused, and early on August 14 the second phase of the Turkish intervention began. Two days later, after having seized 37 percent of the island above what the Turks called the "Atilla Line," the line that ran from Morphou Bay in the northwest to Famagusta (Gazimagusa) in the east, the Turks ordered a ceasefire.

The de facto partition of Cyprus resulting from the Turkish invasion, or intervention, as the Turks preferred to call their military action, caused much suffering in addition to the thousands of dead, many of whom were unaccounted for even years later. An estimated one-third of the population of each ethnic community had to flee their homes. The island's economy was devastated.

Efforts were undertaken immediately to remedy the effects of the catastrophe. Intensive government economic planning and intervention on both sides of the island soon improved living standards and allowed the construction of housing for refugees. Both communities benefited greatly from the expansion of the tourist industry, which brought millions of foreign visitors to the island during the 1980s. The economic success of the Republic of Cyprus was significant enough to seem almost miraculous. Within just a few years, the refugees had housing and were integrated in the bustling economy, and Greek Cypriots enjoyed a West European standard of living. Turkish Cypriots did not do as well, but, working against an international embargo imposed by the Republic of Cyprus and benefiting from extensive Turkish aid, they managed to ensure a decent standard of living for all members of their community--a standard of living, in fact, that was higher than that of Turkey. Both communities established government agencies to provide public assistance to those who needed it and built modern education systems extending to the university level.


Few would dispute some of this mate but many would recognise the lack of accuracy. The funniest bit is the comment about TCS benefitting from tourism in the 80's...... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Kifeas » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:41 am

Oracle wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Kifeas wrote:Miltiades, how can you call somebody a hate master, when in fact he is an essentially mentally castrated individual?


And Oracle told us that she wanted to be like you and post only quality posts.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Got any more quality posts Kifeas dear?????Cause every time you actually attempt one you get shot down like the dog you are!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


When did I say I wanted to post like Kifeas? ... I would be condemning my own posts then :shock:

But he does have an enviable turn of phrase :lol:

Perhaps it is you Zan who should be looking to Kifeas as a mentor.


Thanks for the complement, Oracle. I truly appreciate it, although I only wish I could also have been at least half as pleased and happy with most of your ...posts.


You must admit there are definite signs of improvement .... when I can manage to avoid temptation, with so many easy targets around to tease :lol:


To be honest with you, you have turned me off so many times with your near hysterical posts, that for some months now I have almost completely stopped following them, in their entireness. Therefore, I apologize if there was improvement that I haven’t been able to detect. Are you now suggesting that things have improved significantly, and that I should have no problem getting back into reading them?
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