Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

This is probably not the place to discuss the finer points of electoral systems but short of forcing people to vote, no electoral system can guarantee majority rule. You could have, for example, several rounds of voting in which each successive round actually attracts fewer voters. In any case, whatever system one has there will remain the problem of the 'tyranny of the majority', as Mill described it, unless specific constitutional provisions are included to begin with to veto such tyranny.

Voting should be obligatory I believe. Otherwise people holding certain beliefs could be threatened and forced not to vote.

Tyranny of the majority can exists only when there is no true democracy. A true democracy is not only majority rule, but also human and minority rights which no majority can overwrite.

[Piratis]

Furthermore I believe that apart from elections a democracy should include referenda for important issues so the people can express their will directly.

[CopperLine]

The trouble is Piratis that of getting from A to B. Let's agree that true democracy is what you've just said, the problem is of creating the conditions in which such a true democracy can come about in the first place. The challenge is not B, it is moving out of A towards B. (And in the Cyprus case there is even no agreement that we're even in A !)

[Piratis]

The trouble is Piratis that of getting from A to B. Let's agree that true democracy is what you've just said, the problem is of creating the conditions in which such a true democracy can come about in the first place. The challenge is not B, it is moving out of A towards B. (And in the Cyprus case there is even no agreement that we're even in A !)

The reason there is no agreement is that TCs do not want a true democracy because Turkey promises to them that they can have more power than what they would otherwise have with a democratic system.

Other than that in the free part of Cyprus democracy functions just like in every other democratic country, with alternating governments, multiple parties ranging from left to right, a fair elections system etc. Cyprus is not just GCs and TCs. We have other minorities also and there is no problem with them.

[zan]

The trouble is Piratis that of getting from A to B. Let's agree that true democracy is what you've just said, the problem is of creating the conditions in which such a true democracy can come about in the first place. The challenge is not B, it is moving out of A towards B. (And in the Cyprus case there is even no agreement that we're even in A !)

The reason there is no agreement is that TCs do not want a true democracy because Turkey promises to them that they can have more power than what they would otherwise have with a democratic system.

Other than that in the free part of Cyprus democracy functions just like in every other democratic country, with alternating governments, multiple parties ranging from left to right, a fair elections system etc. Cyprus is not just GCs and TCs. We have other minorities also and there is no problem with them.

It is like getting blood out of a stone with this guy........I envy you for trying Copperline....

[CopperLine]

So we're agreed that the problem is of getting from A to B. Let's say, for sake of argument, that its the TCs who are at A and we want then to get to B. The question is how is that to be done ? There are basically two options : inducements or beatings.

There is little to suggest that beatings have worked so far. Isolation, non-recognition, embargo, etc has not made most TCs want to move to B. In fact if anything it has made them more reluctant, and has confirmed the position of ultra-nationaloists or pan-Turkists that closer integration with 'mother' Turkey is the only way.

So what about inducements ? There are many GCs who say words to the effect of 'we've already given more than we should have to these people who have already stolen our lands what more do they want !!' and so no further inducements should be entertained.

I suppose there's a third position, if not option : It is that of wishing that TCs were already at B. People who say that TCs should just be democratic and accept human rights.... In other words, they've got no political nous, just an appeal to wishful thinking. And this last group are surprised why there's no political movement to a political settlement. Since when was wishful thinking a serious political strategy ?

And what goes for TCs goes for Turkey.

So, Pirartis, is there another game in town ? Or are these two the only options ?

[Piratis]

The "inducements" are the benefits that democracy can provide to all people. If somebody thinks he can get by force more that what democracy gives, and he is willing to use this force, then there is no way to entice him to accept somehting which will offer to him less.

Those that want more than democracy, be it monarchs, foreign rulers or their local governors in an occupied area, can not be enticed or convinced to accept democracy.

If the benefits of democracy are not good enough for TCs because they want more for themselves on the expense of others, then there is only one option on how democracy and freedom can come to our island.

I don't know if you call that "wishful thinking", maybe it is better if you do. I am sure the rulers of Ottoman empire were also thinking like you.

[DUNCAN]

Sorry friends but blaming Britain for all your woes doesn't wash at all. It was Cyprus who wanted to terminate it's relationship with the UK after murdering British troops and citizens under Grivas and, when Britain pulled out it was Cyprus once again, who didn't want to remain in the British Commonwealth with all the protection that would have afforded. Had Mrs Thatcher been Prime Minister when the Turks invaded there might have been a different outcome but there was a Labour government in the UK and they never honour their obligations either to allies or their electorate. You brought it on yourselves but you are certainly making up for it by robbing expats who live here blind in every way you can think of.

[CopperLine]

Piratis - what on earth have Ottoman's got to do with the question of getting from A to B or the nature of democracy.

But that aside, let's still play the socratic game. If, as you say the inducements of democracy itself should be enough in themselves for TCs, but in actuality (a) they are not enough or (b) they are held in check by Turkey, then what ? Do we say 'the game's up, no point in trying anymore, let's just pack up and go home' ? Or do we try something else ?

If you see Turkey as being the key veto on any settlement (on stopping TCs moving from A) then why not reach out to TCs ? Give TCs something that would allow TCs to afford to break from Turkey (one thing is for sure - TCs and GCs and Turks all agree on this - the record so far is that TCs are unable to break the dependence upon Turkey).

[Oracle]

Sorry friends but blaming Britain for all your woes doesn't wash at all. It was Cyprus who wanted to terminate it's relationship with the UK after murdering British troops and citizens under Grivas and, when Britain pulled out it was Cyprus once again, who didn't want to remain in the British Commonwealth with all the protection that would have afforded. Had Mrs Thatcher been Prime Minister when the Turks invaded there might have been a different outcome but there was a Labour government in the UK and they never honour their obligations either to allies or their electorate. You brought it on yourselves but you are certainly making up for it by robbing expats who live here blind in every way you can think of.

I don't think the problem is about Cyprus being in the Commonwealth, but in self-governing itself, as every country has a right to ... especially one much older, and civilised long before Britain.

If you are having trouble paying your bills in Cyprus, may I remind you that you have the freedom to go elsewhere. You do not have to be here to govern us, or protect us or feed us!