Cyprus-Forum.com

[Cem]

Also, Piratis this majority rule -minority right would fit quite well into the present context here in Cyprus, don't you think so ??

[Tim Drayton]

Take the case of headscarf for example. How could allowing a piece of cloth worn on ones head harm anybody? On the contrary this should have been part of personal freedom and freedom of religion (which is a human right), and people should have been allowed to wear it even if they were only a minority.

France has a written constitution. This constitution stipulates that France is a secular state. In 2004, France banned the wearing of Islamic headscarves in schools on the grounds that the wearing of religious insignia in state educational institutions is inconsistent with secularism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/fe ... sworldwide

If you consider the introduction of a similar ban in Turkey on the same grounds to be an infringement of human rights, do you also condemn France for trampling on the human rights of its citizens with this ban? If not, are you not guilty of double standards?

By my logic, you are. Unless, of course, we are dealing with some weird system of logic usually applied to subatomic particles. Perhaps our esteemed scientist fellow forumer could inform us if that is so.

I have no reason to defend France. If there was a law regarding all religious insignia and this was not created recently just for the headscarf then there is no discrimination against a particular group of people. If this was not the case, then yes I would say that France also violates the human rights of those people.

But beyond human rights there is also the issue of democracy. In Turkey the majority of people wanted to allow the headscarf. As long as all other religious insignia would be allowed as well, then I don't see why a (supposedly) democratically elected goverment should not be allowed to do somehting that doesn't violate the rights of anybody.

Fair enough. The French law in fact bars the wearing of conspicuous religious insignia in state schools.

You are right about respecting the wishes of the majority. The majority of British people didn't want Blair to send troops to Iraq, but he did. It doesn't always work, even with elected governments.

[Tim Drayton]

Tim you claim to be a social scientist, so you must appreciate the needs for schools to "neutralise" the appearance of their pupils for all sorts of reasons which have nothing to do with removing Human Rights and everything to do with creating an atmosphere of equality from home-influences such as poverty, as well as religious indoctrination (in those countries which practice secularism).

Universities do not impose the wearing of uniforms (except gowns ) so to make a special Law, just for women, to wear or not to wear a headscarf in such a place is subversive. It discriminates immediately against women.

Basically it's the difference between appreciating the imposition of wearing an assigned uniform when partaking of the offerings of that institution, or finding alternative institutions which meet with your preferred lifestyle.

Who is prevaricating now? Let's find a way of testing the hypothesis:

"Ergenekon has taken over the current Turkish government"

[Piratis]

If I remember well, Hitler came to office by majority votes in 1933.
Then using the fire in Reichstag as an excuse, he made the democracy "kaputt".

I am not sure if Hitler came to power with the votes of the majority. I think it was not exactly like that.

And of course even a leader elected democratically has no right to dissolve democracy or violate human rights. This is what I keep saying to Bananiot, because Bananiot things that Christofias has the right to do a "Hitler" and dissolve democracy, which is wrong.

The issue is not merely a piece of cloth worn over the head. Do you know how many people are being bullied at the moment just because they do not abstain from either drinking and eating during Ramadan in Turkey?

BTW, I would like you the GCs come over to Anatolia particularly during ramadan and stroll the streets with either a bottle or a sandwich in your hand. Then you will see what happens to you.

Piratis, name me just one islamic country which tolerates other religions.

Name one islamic country in which women who don't want to wear headscarves are allowed to do so..

Could you also name muslim states in which greek patriarchs are allowed to practice (if they ever exist ).

A priest shot dead by a youth in a black sea town.

Three converts to Christianity have been murdered under torture in a east Anatolian town.
A noted journalist of Armenian origin was murdered.
So, just like the mainstream media in turkey, do you believe it is the handiwork of Ergenekon ?
then how come and why the culprits have not been sentenced to a maximum penalty ?

There is way difference between a majority rule and a majority oppression.
The 3rd Reich was built on majority rule.....
and minority extinction...
Show me a case whereby women in headscarves and burqas go hand in hand with chicks in mini-skirts and high-heeled shoes.
Show me case where you can freely sip your drink while muslims around you observe the practice of feast without any interference from their part.
Show me case a woman is allowed to choose her future partner even have pre-marital sex with him...
Then I would say why not ?

OK... so lets convert the Turks to Christianity. It will solve the problems of Turkey and it might even solve ours

[Tim Drayton]

Tim you claim to be a social scientist, so you must appreciate the needs for schools to "neutralise" the appearance of their pupils for all sorts of reasons which have nothing to do with removing Human Rights and everything to do with creating an atmosphere of equality from home-influences such as poverty, as well as religious indoctrination (in those countries which practice secularism).

Universities do not impose the wearing of uniforms (except gowns ) so to make a special Law, just for women, to wear or not to wear a headscarf in such a place is subversive. It discriminates immediately against women.

Basically it's the difference between appreciating the imposition of wearing an assigned uniform when partaking of the offerings of that institution, or finding alternative institutions which meet with your preferred lifestyle.

Poor you. You have missed the point. I personally do not support a headscarf ban in Turkish universities. Go back and read my post, and try to understand it. This should be a useful exercise for you. Your failure to understand the articles you have posted earlier in this thread which do not substantiate the claim in whose support they were quoted points to a need to develop your reading skills.

[Piratis]

Also, Piratis this majority rule -minority right would fit quite well into the present context here in Cyprus, don't you think so ??

A true democracy where all citizens are equal without racist discriminations and where the human, minority and democratic rights of all are respected is what would fit best everywhere.

[CopperLine]

Piratis,

I am not sure if Hitler came to power with the votes of the majority. I think it was not exactly like that.

See, for example,
http://facultystaff.vwc.edu/~dgraf/weim.htm

Of the total number of Reichstag deputies (647) the National Socialists with Hitler as the head secured 288 seats in the crucial (and final) 1933 elections, with the second place party (SPD- social democrats) only securing 120 seats.

[CopperLine]

Also, Piratis this majority rule -minority right would fit quite well into the present context here in Cyprus, don't you think so ??

A true democracy where all citizens are equal without racist discriminations and where the human, minority and democratic rights of all are respected is what would fit best everywhere.

If there is respect for human rights then the separate protection of 'minority rights' is unnecessary (and invariably complicates matters). Advancing minority rights only makes sense when one has no confidence in the human rights regime.

[Piratis]

Piratis,

I am not sure if Hitler came to power with the votes of the majority. I think it was not exactly like that.

See, for example,
http://facultystaff.vwc.edu/~dgraf/weim.htm

Of the total number of Reichstag deputies (647) the National Socialists with Hitler as the head secured 288 seats in the crucial (and final) 1933 elections, with the second place party (SPD- social democrats) only securing 120 seats.

OK, that sounds more like plurality than majority then. Personally I think the most democratic is when elections are held over several rounds so the one elected in the end has the votes of the majority.

[CopperLine]

This is probably not the place to discuss the finer points of electoral systems but short of forcing people to vote, no electoral system can guarantee majority rule. You could have, for example, several rounds of voting in which each successive round actually attracts fewer voters. In any case, whatever system one has there will remain the problem of the 'tyranny of the majority', as Mill described it, unless specific constitutional provisions are included to begin with to veto such tyranny.