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The Seeds of Cyprus' Destruction by Turkey & Britain ..

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:44 am

Oracle wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:The Turkish Media has been flooded with information regarding these pogroms of 1956. The involvement of "Ergenekon' is on the news bulletins daily. Many books have been written, films made of these events. It tells me that Turkey is facing up to its responsibilities for these terrible events. The right wing and the 'Military' no longer have such power. That is good. Perhaps there is something that Greece and the Greeks can learn a lesson from.


This information has come out despite the Turkish Deep State not because it is opening up and facing responsibility Deniz. Good attempt to salvage some kudos, but Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.


According to Oracle, Ergenekon have taken over and control the present government. Another classic. Why do people pass comment about things of which they have no knowledge?
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Postby Oracle » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:01 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Oracle wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:The Turkish Media has been flooded with information regarding these pogroms of 1956. The involvement of "Ergenekon' is on the news bulletins daily. Many books have been written, films made of these events. It tells me that Turkey is facing up to its responsibilities for these terrible events. The right wing and the 'Military' no longer have such power. That is good. Perhaps there is something that Greece and the Greeks can learn a lesson from.


This information has come out despite the Turkish Deep State not because it is opening up and facing responsibility Deniz. Good attempt to salvage some kudos, but Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.


According to Oracle, Ergenekon have taken over and control the present government. Another classic. Why do people pass comment about things of which they have no knowledge?


And according to Tim who likes to act Dim :roll: .... it is all hunky-dory, cut-and-dry, above-board, ship-shape and Bristol fashion! :roll:

OpenDemocracy wrote:
Ergenekon: Turkey’s “deep state” in the light
Bill Park

An elite conspiracy is charged with intending to destabilise Turkey's elected government in order to defend the country's permanent, secretive structure of power. But does the legal case tell the whole story, asks Bill Park. 7 - 08 - 2008

Turkey's numerous and interlocking series of political, legal and security crises continues to cast a large shadow over the country's future direction. At least one of these crises - the attempt to ban the governing Adalet ve Kalkinma Partisi (Justice & Development Party / AKP) over its supposedly unconstitutional Islamist leanings - seemed to ease a little with the decision by the constitutional court on 31 July 2008 to impose a financial penalty on the party rather than declare it illegal.

Bill Park is a senior lecturer in the department of defence studies at Kings College London
This outcome, albeit by a narrow margin, was widely welcomed as a timely boost for Turkey's troubled democracy. As one legal timebomb is defused, however, another potent one remains primed. This is the 2,500-page indictment submitted to an Istanbul court on 14 July against an alleged conspiratorial group known by the sobriquet "Ergenekon".

The indictment was submitted a full thirteen months after the discovery of an arms dump in an Istanbul house, which prompted a wave of detentions. Under its terms, eighty-six figures - retired military officers, politicians, journalists, lawyers, businessmen, academics, and known criminals - were charged with a range of crimes; they included "attempting to destroy the government of the Republic of Turkey", "membership in an armed terrorist group", and "inciting people to rebel against the Republic of Turkey".

...

Cem Özdemir, "Turkey's clash of values: memo to Europe" (29 April 2008
The indictment made no reference to the publication by the weekly journal Nokta in early 2007 of what were alleged to be excerpts from the diaries of a former commander of the Turkish navy that coups against the AKP government had been planned in 2003 and 2004 during the term of general Hilmi Özkök as chief of the general staff. The diaries reported that Özkök had disappointed some of his subordinates by opposing the plans. Nokta's offices were raided and the journal closed down, although no action appears to have been taken by the military high command against the alleged conspirators.

An elusive conspiracy

A number of leading figures who were implicated in the diaries - including retired gendarmerie general Sener Eruygur (head of the movement which during 2007 had organised mass rallies against the ruling AKP's attempt to secure the presidency), and retired general Hursit Tolon - were since arrested as part of the Ergenekon investigation, with the cooperation of the military authorities; but they were not charged in the indictment. There have been still more detentions subsequent to the submission of the indictment. All this suggests that more indictments are to follow.

More specific charges included in the indictment are "inciting others to stage the 2006 council of state shooting and a hand-grenade attack at the Cumhuriyet newspaper's Istanbul office". The interest in these two allegations lies in the fact that the council-of-state attack, in which a senior judge was killed, came in the wake of an anti-headscarf decision made by the council, and that Cumhuriyet is a ferociously secular newspaper whose owner and regular columnist Ilhan Selcuk is among those charged with Ergenekon membership.

A supposed Islamist, Alpaslan Arslan, was found guilty of these attacks and is currently in jail. It is now alleged that he had links with members of the Ergenekon "gang". The possibility that the derin devlet ("deep state") staged attacks on its own sympathisers and on figures otherwise regarded as Republican loyalists, and then sought to provoke crises by shifting the blame onto leftists, Kurds and Islamists, suggest that it will now be suspected of each of Turkey's endless litany of hitherto unresolved disappearances, bombings, assassinations, disturbances, and acts of intimidations.

Indeed, some sections of the Turkish media are already raking over the past for crimes that might plausibly be linked to Ergenekon, although other media outlets are doing their best to minimise both their coverage of and the significance of the case. The leader of the arch-Kemalist Cumhuriyet Halk Partisi (Republican People's Party / CHP) opposition party, Deniz Baykal, has been particularly insistent on what he has regarded as the politically-motivated, implausible and trivial nature of the allegations.

A shadow lifted

Turks have long been convinced of the existence of this so-called "deep state", consisting of interlocking networks of individuals, often drawn from but acting in parallel to the state, immune from prosecution and engaged directly or indirectly in illicit operations such as intimidation, assassinations and bombings against those deemed to be in opposition to the official Kemalist nationalist and secularist ideology of the Turkish republic. The detail contained in the Ergenekon indictment, made public on 25 July, suggest the presumed existence of a "deep state" has rested on something more substantial than any Turkish love of conspiracy theories.

It includes the allegation that the "gang" plied the PKK with logistical and monetary support and cooperated with it in the drugs trade, that it was behind a large number of unresolved political assassinations previously attributed to leftist and fundamentalist groups with whom the "gang" is reported to have links, and that it provoked intercommunal tensions between Turks and Kurds, and between Sunnis and Alevis.

One of the numerous past incidents attributed to the "deep state" is the so-called Susurluk affair of 1996, a road accident in which the high-ranking police officer at the wheel of the car and two of his passengers, a beauty queen and Abdullah Catli, an internationally sought after mafia boss and former leader of the far-right Grey Wolves movement, died. The only surviving passenger was a Kurdish tribal leader who both headed a "village guard" unit armed by the state to combat the armed guerrillas of the PKK in southeastern Turkey, and served as parliamentary representative for the Dogru Yol Partisi (True Path Party / DYP).

The national-assembly committee that investigated the incident offered considerable evidence of close ties between state authorities and criminal gangs, including the use of the far-right Grey Wolves to carry out illegal activities, but its investigations were obstructed and no serious arrests were made. The retired brigadier-general Veli Küçük, who was detained but then released during the investigation and was known to have associated with Catli, is just one of a number of Ergenekon indictees who had previously been linked to the Susurluk scandal.

Between past and future

The first cases relating to the Ergenekon investigation will be heard by the Turkish courts only on 20 October 2008. But with so many suspects, so many crimes, and with Turkey's track-record of official immunity, the investigation could take years before it yields significant fruit. It might meet with something substantially less than total success, and could even fizzle out. It is possible that the more the investigation shades from the "deep state" into the state itself, including the active military high command and perhaps the CHP leadership (both of which are anticipated), the more likely it is to at least partially run aground.

After all, as the Washington-based Turkish observer Omer Taspinar has expressed: "the system, the media, the state bureaucracy and the political culture of the country all fuel a schizophrenic and paranoid mindset. It is that mindset that has created Ergenekon". On the other hand, Turkey has never before moved anything like this far against the "deep state", and there is too a chance that the country might embark on the removal of those entrenched obstacles to its true democratisation.

The more this realisation penetrates the thinking of those in the west who have traditionally regarded Turkey's Kemalist establishment as the domestic guarantors of Turkey's democratisation, the more likely it is both that republican Turkey's past will be profoundly reinterpreted, and that its democratic future will be assured.
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Postby zan » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:27 pm

Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
paliometoxo wrote:............... turk whatever u said is all rubbish...

and i like your post oracle, its so true, the people who have bought missery to cyprus and war is england and turkey if they both kept their nose out from where it does not belong we would be ok now...


You should read more..... 8) 8) 8)


Perhaps you should do too Zan ... since your article with dubious historical significance has even less relevance here!


Really :lol: :lol: Your point is to show why the troubles in the area are still active and the Megali idea, later disguised as ENOSIS because it could be fobbed off as a religious thing rather than a political one, is very relevant as to why TUrkey had to act as they did to protect themselves from Greek expansionism. No matter where we go with this there is a aggressive Greek precursor that pops up. Nice try though!!
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Postby zan » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:31 pm

denizaksulu wrote:The Turkish Media has been flooded with information regarding these pogroms of 1956. The involvement of "Ergenekon' is on the news bulletins daily. Many books have been written, films made of these events. It tells me that Turkey is facing up to its responsibilities for these terrible events. The right wing and the 'Military' no longer have such power. That is good. Perhaps there is something that Greece and the Greeks can learn a lesson from.


It seems that Greeks do not learn lessons Deniz....They are stuck in a time when they reached their highest point of taking other peoples work and calling it their own. When they decide to enter the real world then and only then can they learn something new....I mean...Look at Stella. Still riding on a wave of Greek ultra nationalism six feet under the surface...... :lol: :lol:
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:33 pm

We previously hear from Oracle, concerning the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka:

“Once again another Muslim connected conflict.”

Now we hear, with reference to the organisation code named Ergenekon in Turkey:

“Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.”

Anybody with the most basic knowledge of current affairs in these countries knows that both the above statements fly directly in the face of the truth. The odd thing is that they come not from some uneducated boor, but from one who claims to have a grounding in the natural sciences. One would expect a certain respect for objectivity, an understanding for the need to collect and examine data before passing pronouncement, of such a person. These comments point to an inability, or perhaps an unwillingness, to do just this. The principles used in conducting scientific research have equal application in other fields of inquiry. Or is there really a huge gulf separating the natural sciences from the humanities?
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Postby Oracle » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:57 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:We previously hear from Oracle, concerning the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka:

“Once again another Muslim connected conflict.”

Now we hear, with reference to the organisation code named Ergenekon in Turkey:

“Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.”

Anybody with the most basic knowledge of current affairs in these countries knows that both the above statements fly directly in the face of the truth. The odd thing is that they come not from some uneducated boor, but from one who claims to have a grounding in the natural sciences. One would expect a certain respect for objectivity, an understanding for the need to collect and examine data before passing pronouncement, of such a person. These comments point to an inability, or perhaps an unwillingness, to do just this. The principles used in conducting scientific research have equal application in other fields of inquiry. Or is there really a huge gulf separating the natural sciences from the humanities?


Like Bananiot, upon losing the argument, you resort to personality dissections. :roll: Well you leave me no choice but to follow suit ....

I take it you have no comment on the OpenDemocracy article which I kindly posted for you going more than some way to help in providing the objective data from which I drew my conclusion ... and we have also covered masses in other threads. Hence my summation of the present state of Turkey, to which you offer baseless dissent.

The previous comment I made about the Muslims (like CopperLine I see you do not respect boundaries :roll: ) was not made out of the blue, but was a direct correlation with a link which you yourself posted ... It led to another argument that you lost through irrational desires to "expose" my background training and reveal how conflicting it is with the comments I make. You failed.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can apply true scientific methodology to politics though and produce anything meaningful. The premise of science is that a theory has to be testable and falsifiable. Like religion, politics lacks those essential properties. Anything goes with most politicians .... but at least I try and show that what I say is verifiable .... However, it is up to you, more of a politician than I am, if you wish to carry on ignoring the proof through your lack of training.
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Postby zan » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:04 pm

Oracle wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:We previously hear from Oracle, concerning the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka:

“Once again another Muslim connected conflict.”

Now we hear, with reference to the organisation code named Ergenekon in Turkey:

“Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.”

Anybody with the most basic knowledge of current affairs in these countries knows that both the above statements fly directly in the face of the truth. The odd thing is that they come not from some uneducated boor, but from one who claims to have a grounding in the natural sciences. One would expect a certain respect for objectivity, an understanding for the need to collect and examine data before passing pronouncement, of such a person. These comments point to an inability, or perhaps an unwillingness, to do just this. The principles used in conducting scientific research have equal application in other fields of inquiry. Or is there really a huge gulf separating the natural sciences from the humanities?


Like Bananiot, upon losing the argument, you resort to personality dissections. :roll: Well you leave me no choice but to follow suit ....

I take it you have no comment on the OpenDemocracy article which I kindly posted for you going more than some way to help in providing the objective data from which I drew my conclusion ... and we have also covered masses in other threads. Hence my summation of the present state of Turkey, to which you offer baseless dissent.

The previous comment I made about the Muslims (like CopperLine I see you do not respect boundaries :roll: ) was not made out of the blue, but was a direct correlation with a link which you yourself posted ... It led to another argument that you lost through irrational desires to "expose" my background training and reveal how conflicting it is with the comments I make. You failed.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can apply true scientific methodology to politics though and produce anything meaningful. The premise of science is that a theory has to be testable and falsifiable. Like religion, politics lacks those essential properties. Anything goes with most politicians .... but at least I try and show that what I say is verifiable .... However, it is up to you, more of a politician than I am, if you wish to carry on ignoring the proof through your lack of training.


You are easily satisfied when it comes to verifying anything negative with Turkey Stella. You find the first bit of information you come across as proof and post it and then spend pages trying to defend the indefensible. Probably why you are now using the excuse of looking after your son as to why you are no longer working...ON seeing how you perform here, I would guess that it was because you were crap at your job.... :roll:
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:06 pm

Oracle wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:We previously hear from Oracle, concerning the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka:

“Once again another Muslim connected conflict.”

Now we hear, with reference to the organisation code named Ergenekon in Turkey:

“Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.”

Anybody with the most basic knowledge of current affairs in these countries knows that both the above statements fly directly in the face of the truth. The odd thing is that they come not from some uneducated boor, but from one who claims to have a grounding in the natural sciences. One would expect a certain respect for objectivity, an understanding for the need to collect and examine data before passing pronouncement, of such a person. These comments point to an inability, or perhaps an unwillingness, to do just this. The principles used in conducting scientific research have equal application in other fields of inquiry. Or is there really a huge gulf separating the natural sciences from the humanities?


Like Bananiot, upon losing the argument, you resort to personality dissections. :roll: Well you leave me no choice but to follow suit ....

I take it you have no comment on the OpenDemocracy article which I kindly posted for you going more than some way to help in providing the objective data from which I drew my conclusion ... and we have also covered masses in other threads. Hence my summation of the present state of Turkey, to which you offer baseless dissent.

The previous comment I made about the Muslims (like CopperLine I see you do not respect boundaries :roll: ) was not made out of the blue, but was a direct correlation with a link which you yourself posted ... It led to another argument that you lost through irrational desires to "expose" my background training and reveal how conflicting it is with the comments I make. You failed.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can apply true scientific methodology to politics though and produce anything meaningful. The premise of science is that a theory has to be testable and falsifiable. Like religion, politics lacks those essential properties. Anything goes with most politicians .... but at least I try and show that what I say is verifiable .... However, it is up to you, more of a politician than I am, if you wish to carry on ignoring the proof through your lack of training.


By the OpenDemocracy article, do you mean the article by Bill Park? I read it and think it is excellent. I recommend that you actually read it and try to understand it.
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Postby Oracle » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:14 pm

zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:We previously hear from Oracle, concerning the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka:

“Once again another Muslim connected conflict.”

Now we hear, with reference to the organisation code named Ergenekon in Turkey:

“Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.”

Anybody with the most basic knowledge of current affairs in these countries knows that both the above statements fly directly in the face of the truth. The odd thing is that they come not from some uneducated boor, but from one who claims to have a grounding in the natural sciences. One would expect a certain respect for objectivity, an understanding for the need to collect and examine data before passing pronouncement, of such a person. These comments point to an inability, or perhaps an unwillingness, to do just this. The principles used in conducting scientific research have equal application in other fields of inquiry. Or is there really a huge gulf separating the natural sciences from the humanities?


Like Bananiot, upon losing the argument, you resort to personality dissections. :roll: Well you leave me no choice but to follow suit ....

I take it you have no comment on the OpenDemocracy article which I kindly posted for you going more than some way to help in providing the objective data from which I drew my conclusion ... and we have also covered masses in other threads. Hence my summation of the present state of Turkey, to which you offer baseless dissent.

The previous comment I made about the Muslims (like CopperLine I see you do not respect boundaries :roll: ) was not made out of the blue, but was a direct correlation with a link which you yourself posted ... It led to another argument that you lost through irrational desires to "expose" my background training and reveal how conflicting it is with the comments I make. You failed.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can apply true scientific methodology to politics though and produce anything meaningful. The premise of science is that a theory has to be testable and falsifiable. Like religion, politics lacks those essential properties. Anything goes with most politicians .... but at least I try and show that what I say is verifiable .... However, it is up to you, more of a politician than I am, if you wish to carry on ignoring the proof through your lack of training.


You are easily satisfied when it comes to verifying anything negative with Turkey Stella. You find the first bit of information you come across as proof and post it and then spend pages trying to defend the indefensible. Probably why you are now using the excuse of looking after your son as to why you are no longer working...ON seeing how you perform here, I would guess that it was because you were crap at your job.... :roll:


Join in with the personality criticisms why don't you :roll: ... I guess my article is not refutable by either of you two masterminds (... and Deniz is still trying to think of words for Games 1, 2 & 3 :lol: ).

What's your excuse for being a crap poster then?

(btw ... kindly leave my family out of this Zan ... and I did not say I was no longer working!).
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:14 pm

zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:We previously hear from Oracle, concerning the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka:

“Once again another Muslim connected conflict.”

Now we hear, with reference to the organisation code named Ergenekon in Turkey:

“Ergenekon are deeper and more furtive than ever. Most recently with their take-over and control over the present government.”

Anybody with the most basic knowledge of current affairs in these countries knows that both the above statements fly directly in the face of the truth. The odd thing is that they come not from some uneducated boor, but from one who claims to have a grounding in the natural sciences. One would expect a certain respect for objectivity, an understanding for the need to collect and examine data before passing pronouncement, of such a person. These comments point to an inability, or perhaps an unwillingness, to do just this. The principles used in conducting scientific research have equal application in other fields of inquiry. Or is there really a huge gulf separating the natural sciences from the humanities?


Like Bananiot, upon losing the argument, you resort to personality dissections. :roll: Well you leave me no choice but to follow suit ....

I take it you have no comment on the OpenDemocracy article which I kindly posted for you going more than some way to help in providing the objective data from which I drew my conclusion ... and we have also covered masses in other threads. Hence my summation of the present state of Turkey, to which you offer baseless dissent.

The previous comment I made about the Muslims (like CopperLine I see you do not respect boundaries :roll: ) was not made out of the blue, but was a direct correlation with a link which you yourself posted ... It led to another argument that you lost through irrational desires to "expose" my background training and reveal how conflicting it is with the comments I make. You failed.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can apply true scientific methodology to politics though and produce anything meaningful. The premise of science is that a theory has to be testable and falsifiable. Like religion, politics lacks those essential properties. Anything goes with most politicians .... but at least I try and show that what I say is verifiable .... However, it is up to you, more of a politician than I am, if you wish to carry on ignoring the proof through your lack of training.


You are easily satisfied when it comes to verifying anything negative with Turkey Stella. You find the first bit of information you come across as proof and post it and then spend pages trying to defend the indefensible. Probably why you are now using the excuse of looking after your son as to why you are no longer working...ON seeing how you perform here, I would guess that it was because you were crap at your job.... :roll:


Just read the article, Zan. It offers no "proof" whatosever for the claim that Ergenekon have taken over the government of Turkey.

The organisation named Ergenekon was planning to stage a coup in 2009 to overthrow the democratically elected government. They have been thwarted and the key members of this organisation are in jail awaiting trial.
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