Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

.... There is not a single 'true' history, though I know that you think otherwise.

There are facts and there are opinions.

Whilst you are entitled to make up your own opinions, you are not entitled to make up your own facts!

[CopperLine]

you are not entitled to make up your own facts!

Statement 1 : 'In 1974 there was an invasion of Cyprus.'
Statement 2 : 'In 1974 there was an intervention in Cyprus.'
Statement 3 : 'In 1974 there was a peace operation in Cyprus.'

Which one of these statements, if any, is a fact ?

[Magnus]

you are not entitled to make up your own facts!

Statement 1 : 'In 1974 there was an invasion of Cyprus.'
Statement 2 : 'In 1974 there was an intervention in Cyprus.'
Statement 3 : 'In 1974 there was a peace operation in Cyprus.'

Which one of these statements, if any, is a fact ?

The facts are what happened, not what you choose to name it. The facts are Turkey sent military forces to Cyprus, dropped napalm on villages, killed thousands of people and drove hundreds of thousands out of their homes, then set up a perimeter that still exists to this day.

[CopperLine]

Magnus,
You are choosing active verbs for your facts : rather than intervention, or invasion or humanitarian you describes actions as 'sending', 'dropping', 'killing', 'driving', 'setting up'.

(what you said should not be done)

Play it again,

Statement 1 : 'In 1974 there was an invasion of Cyprus.'
Statement 2 : 'In 1974 there was an intervention in Cyprus.'
Statement 3 : 'In 1974 there was a peace operation in Cyprus.'
Statement 4 : 'In 1974 there were Turkish forces sent to Cyprus.'
Statement 5 : 'In 1974 there were napalm bombing of villages.'
........................

[Piratis]

The actions are the facts. For example I could murder an innocent child in cold blood and then claim that I did so for humanitarian reasons because I had a vision that this child would grow up to become the new Hitler.

The fact is the murder. Anther fact is that the victim was an innocent child. My "humanitarian reasons" claims would just be ridiculous allegations. Just like Turkey calling their invasion a "peace operation".

[Magnus]

Again, historical fact is not a matter of phrase. Fact should be presented as:

Statement 1: In 1974, Turkish military forces were sent to Cyprus. There is evidence to prove this. (present Evidence A/B/C)

Statement 2: The Turkish military dropped napalm on villages in Cyprus. There is evidence to prove this. (present Evidence A/B/C)

Statement 3: The Turkish military killed thousands of people. There is evidence to prove this. (present Evidence A/B/C)

Statement 4: The Turkish military drove hundreds of thousands of people from their homes. There is evidence to prove this. (present Evidence A/B/C)

Statement 5: The Turkish military set up a perimeter line in Cyprus which still exists to this day. There is evidence to prove this. (present Evidence A/B/C)

The Turkish military and government justified their actions with arguments A/B/C. The evidence which supports their arguments is X/Y/Z. The Republic of Cyprus refuted these claims with arguments A/B/C. The evidence that supports their arguments is X/Y/Z.

Present the evidence and let people decide if it was an intervention, a peace operation or an invasion.

[zan]

The actions are the facts. For example I could murder an innocent child in cold blood and then claim that I did so for humanitarian reasons because I had a vision that this child would grow up to become the new Hitler.

The fact is the murder. Anther fact is that the victim was an innocent child. My "humanitarian reasons" claims would just be ridiculous allegations. Just like Turkey calling their invasion a "peace operation".

Yet again half truths if not lies......What was going on before then and what about the INVASION by the Greeks......What about the thousands killed by the Greeks......What about the atrocities of 1963/4...What about the illegal isolation of TCs.....You are so one sided mate..No wonder you do not want the truth to get out...

[CopperLine]

Magnus,
It was going well until you wrote

Present the evidence and let people decide if it was an intervention, a peace operation or an invasion.

That sounds like the strength or otherwise of facts is judged by the opinion people have of the evidence. If you let the people decide on what counts as evidence then the veracity of facts might be dependent on a popularity contest.

[zan]

As I acknowledged, Zan, I know that I'm in a tiny minority, idealist or not. But the most difficult lies to counter are those that have been authorised by government, and have the full power of the state mobilised in their support. The spreading of 'historical lies' of individuals here and there is nothing compared with the organised lying conducted by the state from primary schools to government ministries.

I didn't mean to call you an idealist

Joking aside...I agree with you.....That is why I have been shouting that Turkey should organise a better system to match that of the Greeks....They are so much better at it.

[Piratis]

The actions are the facts. For example I could murder an innocent child in cold blood and then claim that I did so for humanitarian reasons because I had a vision that this child would grow up to become the new Hitler.

The fact is the murder. Anther fact is that the victim was an innocent child. My "humanitarian reasons" claims would just be ridiculous allegations. Just like Turkey calling their invasion a "peace operation".

Yet again half truths if not lies......What was going on before then and what about the INVASION by the Greeks......What about the thousands killed by the Greeks......What about the atrocities of 1963/4...What about the illegal isolation of TCs.....You are so one sided mate..No wonder you do not want the truth to get out...

What thousands killed by Greeks? Maybe you refer to 1000s of GCs? Because there was never a case where 1000s of TCs were killed.

Turkey had coups as well. So what? Should have Greece invaded Turkey to "save the Greek minority" when no Greek was harmed by the coupists?

What happened in 1963/64 was a decade earlier. If you want to play the "chain of events" game, then 1963 was a result of the 1958, and if you want we can take this chain to the very begging, and again the aggressors are the Turks.

So stop trying to find excuses for your crimes.