Cyprus-Forum.com

[kafenes]

Limnitis has never been an open gate Kikapu. I think it may be the next to open. The furore that arose was the refusal to allow pilgrims to cross it to go to nearby Morphou, when all the signals sent were that the granting of permission was just a formality.

I reckon it was a message to Talat that the army still holds the aces and making it difficult for Talat a couple of days before the talks were scheduled to start is like playing the generals' game.

Just a thought. Whilst there three weeks ago I heard of demonstrations by TC's who are against any move to return 'Morphou' to the GC's.
Perhaps under the circumstances the Northern administration thought that there may have been a 'security' issue here. Considering that both GCs and TCs have their own hot heads..............................

Like what kind of 'security' issue, for example, Deniz?

Like a lot of unpleasant noises to the effect that they would rather die than give Morphou up. With this kind of rhetoric it could cause problems.

Hey Kafenes. I am not supporting anything here. I am just trying to find a 'rationale' for their actions (or inactions). Some actions seem 'illogical'. I am trying to find some logic here. If you have read my previous posts - as I am sure you have - you will see my own response. Personally I do not wish the repeat of the 'Solomou' incident. It would take just one idiot..........

Deniz, I know what you mean. I didn't say you are being supportive, but just wondered what kind of security problems there could be since there are other crossings open.

[denizaksulu]

Limnitis has never been an open gate Kikapu. I think it may be the next to open. The furore that arose was the refusal to allow pilgrims to cross it to go to nearby Morphou, when all the signals sent were that the granting of permission was just a formality.

I reckon it was a message to Talat that the army still holds the aces and making it difficult for Talat a couple of days before the talks were scheduled to start is like playing the generals' game.

Just a thought. Whilst there three weeks ago I heard of demonstrations by TC's who are against any move to return 'Morphou' to the GC's.
Perhaps under the circumstances the Northern administration thought that there may have been a 'security' issue here. Considering that both GCs and TCs have their own hot heads..............................

Like what kind of 'security' issue, for example, Deniz?

Like a lot of unpleasant noises to the effect that they would rather die than give Morphou up. With this kind of rhetoric it could cause problems.

Hey Kafenes. I am not supporting anything here. I am just trying to find a 'rationale' for their actions (or inactions). Some actions seem 'illogical'. I am trying to find some logic here. If you have read my previous posts - as I am sure you have - you will see my own response. Personally I do not wish the repeat of the 'Solomou' incident. It would take just one idiot..........

Deniz, I know what you mean. I didn't say you are being supportive, but just wondered what kind of security problems there could be since there are other crossings open.

Their blood might still be boiling. Fear of the unknown 'hot-heads'?

Other crossings are mutually agreed. This one seems a bit 'whiffy'.
Lets hope they resolve the issue, whatever it is.

[kafenes]

i dont get this lengthy discussion on closing the borders since there is next to no chance of such a thing happening. You might certainly want/wish it but this government will never do such a thing so why discuss it?

turkkan, by 'discussing' subjects like this, I find we bring to light other aspects of the Cyprus problem as well and what both sides think. For example, I am learning that (minus some very minor percentage of partitionists from both sides) that GCs and TCs are allies with a common enemy. You probably say why start a 'close all crossings' thread, well that is one way to start a discussion to get various people's opinion which is exactly what is happening here.

[turkkan]

THe ROC for the past 34 years has been complaining in the international arena that turkey is violating the rights of its citizens to access their property and travel freely around Cyprus, you can not after so much rhetoric turn around and shut the borders and effectiveley do the same thing out of your own will . That is why the ROC allowed the borders to be opened when Denktash opened them, not because she thought it was a particularly good idea or that they were 'tricked' into it. It would be highly inconsistent with the ROC's official positions,the EU would be very critical of such a move and most importantly it would certainly play into our hands. It would infact possibly be one of the biggests gifts diplomatically that could be given to us.

What could possibly be done is not make it as easy to cross the border via a number of mechanisms, but again these could be challenged in court and if it is found that a tourist or a greek cypriot is treated differently than a turkish cypriot is that would mean discrimination of an EU citizen and it would fall in any court so it wont be done. A government that has run a campaign both locally and on the international arena concerning its close links with the turkish cypriot parties does not shut down any borders.

[turkkan]

turkkan, by 'discussing' subjects like this, I find we bring to light other aspects of the Cyprus problem as well and what both sides think. For example, I am learning that (minus some very minor percentage of partitionists from both sides) that GCs and TCs are allies with a common enemy. You probably say why start a 'close all crossings' thread, well that is one way to start a discussion to get various people's opinion which is exactly what is happening here.

Im not referring to the general discussion, but to posts such as 'shut all the borders immediately' that could be found earlier in this thread. Its as if some people have watched the news on TV, gotten angry, came online and posted their revenge rant of shutting the borders and 'starving' the TC's.

[DT.]

The ROC for the past 34 years has been complaining in the international arena that turkey is violating the rights of its citizens to access their property and travel freely around Cyprus, you can not after so much rhetoric turn around and shut the borders and effectiveley do the same thing out of your own will . That is why the ROC allowed the borders to be opened when Denktash opened them, not because she thought it was a particularly good idea or that they were 'tricked' into it. It would be highly inconsistent with the ROC's official positions,the EU would be very critical of such a move and most importantly it would certainly play into our hands. It would infact possibly be one of the biggests gifts diplomatically that could be given to us.

What could possibly be done is not make it as easy to cross the border via a number of mechanisms, but again these could be challenged in court and if it is found that a tourist or a greek cypriot is treated differently than a turkish cypriot is that would mean discrimination of an EU citizen and it would fall in any court so it wont be done. A government that has run a campaign both locally and on the international arena concerning its close links with the turkish cypriot parties does not shut down any borders.

Turkkan, freedom of movement in your own country and the right of return to your home does not mean
1) Right of return as a tourist to your home and you may peak through the window.
2) Freedom of movement in you own country as long as you go through customs.

The opening of our side of the green line had nothing to do with what you're saying but more with the fact that we've been saying all along that TC's and GC"s can co-exist in a unitary state in peace. The crossings have proven that to a great extent and have somewhat disarmed the turkish side from a 30 year old argument that tc's require the protection of the turkish army to survive amongst gc's.

HOWEVER. Lets get one thing straight, the pilgrims were to still pass from Agios Dometios so any trouble that could have been caused would still have been caused in Morphou, so I don't believe that's the reason this happened. The reason this happened was a clear message from Turkey that the Cypriots can only go so far without the permission from Turkey. A message so subtle to foreigners yet so real to us.

Never accept the Pyla demands since they are only one-sided and I would have gone so far so as to shutdown Ledra's for a month. Good strong symbols that you won;t accept 2 measures and that if this is gonna work then both have to tango. Otherwise Turkey will carry on believing that they can afford to be as reluctant and hardcore as they like to negotiate with and there will be no outside noise to condemn it.

[repulsewarrior]

...a simple solution would have been for the army to escort the travellers to the church. a show of force would have been the soldiers who escorted these people being unarmed. this is confidence building. this is realpolitik, this is slapping Goodwill in the face, ...but as we know the Turkish Army is an entity apart, and it acts to make clear its superiority over any other authority like a school bully, because of its size it has no need for smarts...

so...let's "blame" the "Turks" now, for opening the gates, and let's close the gates all together, or tax them because we can be mean, ....hello? Turkish Army here, sooner or later as bullies are apt to do, they go too far.

our resolve is to stand united as one People, to demonstrate that we are committed to the Principals that Humanity holds Universal, this island's dwellers as its steward. Christofias promised changes from the ground up. we have seen that as a Statesmen he has improved our relations with our global partners. It is time for him to have the courage in the face of this intolerance to show continued respect for his countrymen of whatever colour who are victims of this same force of occupation. For Talat to free himself from the bonds which hold him to Turkey he must be able to demonstrate that his counterpart understands better the needs of Turkish Cypriots, and that in supporting each others needs, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots can end any interlocutor's subjugation by standing united as one People.

[Viewpoint]

so according to you VP then we should close the crossings because we don't trust Turkey and you don't trust GC's. Problem solved. God forbid we try and work it out. So why are you turning up to a peace march then? That's an answer for yourself.

As I have said many times although I do not believe we will ever agree a solution because the chasm is just to far to bridge Im still willing to be proven wrong but time and time again I am proven 100% right. Neither side has the vision or the desire to compromise so no solution will be found, feel free to prove me wrong if you can, even you show the sign that we have drifted further and further apart that you willing to agree partition as long as we accept a reduction in land.

[Viewpoint]

The ROC for the past 34 years has been complaining in the international arena that turkey is violating the rights of its citizens to access their property and travel freely around Cyprus, you can not after so much rhetoric turn around and shut the borders and effectiveley do the same thing out of your own will . That is why the ROC allowed the borders to be opened when Denktash opened them, not because she thought it was a particularly good idea or that they were 'tricked' into it. It would be highly inconsistent with the ROC's official positions,the EU would be very critical of such a move and most importantly it would certainly play into our hands. It would infact possibly be one of the biggests gifts diplomatically that could be given to us.

What could possibly be done is not make it as easy to cross the border via a number of mechanisms, but again these could be challenged in court and if it is found that a tourist or a greek cypriot is treated differently than a turkish cypriot is that would mean discrimination of an EU citizen and it would fall in any court so it wont be done. A government that has run a campaign both locally and on the international arena concerning its close links with the turkish cypriot parties does not shut down any borders.

Turkkan, freedom of movement in your own country and the right of return to your home does not mean
1) Right of return as a tourist to your home and you may peak through the window.
2) Freedom of movement in you own country as long as you go through customs.

The opening of our side of the green line had nothing to do with what you're saying but more with the fact that we've been saying all along that TC's and GC"s can co-exist in a unitary state in peace. The crossings have proven that to a great extent and have somewhat disarmed the turkish side from a 30 year old argument that tc's require the protection of the turkish army to survive amongst gc's.

HOWEVER. Lets get one thing straight, the pilgrims were to still pass from Agios Dometios so any trouble that could have been caused would still have been caused in Morphou, so I don't believe that's the reason this happened. The reason this happened was a clear message from Turkey that the Cypriots can only go so far without the permission from Turkey. A message so subtle to foreigners yet so real to us.

Never accept the Pyla demands since they are only one-sided and I would have gone so far so as to shutdown Ledra's for a month. Good strong symbols that you won;t accept 2 measures and that if this is gonna work then both have to tango. Otherwise Turkey will carry on believing that they can afford to be as reluctant and hardcore as they like to negotiate with and there will be no outside noise to condemn it.

Refering to your point highlighted, we live divided we only visit the other side neither can afford playing the tricks of the past which a unitary state can conceal, take the Pile incidents as a clear example of living together "in peace".

[Kifeas]

The ROC for the past 34 years has been complaining in the international arena that turkey is violating the rights of its citizens to access their property and travel freely around Cyprus, you can not after so much rhetoric turn around and shut the borders and effectiveley do the same thing out of your own will . That is why the ROC allowed the borders to be opened when Denktash opened them, not because she thought it was a particularly good idea or that they were 'tricked' into it. It would be highly inconsistent with the ROC's official positions,the EU would be very critical of such a move and most importantly it would certainly play into our hands. It would infact possibly be one of the biggests gifts diplomatically that could be given to us.

What could possibly be done is not make it as easy to cross the border via a number of mechanisms, but again these could be challenged in court and if it is found that a tourist or a greek cypriot is treated differently than a turkish cypriot is that would mean discrimination of an EU citizen and it would fall in any court so it wont be done. A government that has run a campaign both locally and on the international arena concerning its close links with the turkish cypriot parties does not shut down any borders.

Turkkan, freedom of movement in your own country and the right of return to your home does not mean
1) Right of return as a tourist to your home and you may peak through the window.
2) Freedom of movement in you own country as long as you go through customs.

The opening of our side of the green line had nothing to do with what you're saying but more with the fact that we've been saying all along that TC's and GC"s can co-exist in a unitary state in peace. The crossings have proven that to a great extent and have somewhat disarmed the turkish side from a 30 year old argument that tc's require the protection of the turkish army to survive amongst gc's.

HOWEVER. Lets get one thing straight, the pilgrims were to still pass from Agios Dometios so any trouble that could have been caused would still have been caused in Morphou, so I don't believe that's the reason this happened. The reason this happened was a clear message from Turkey that the Cypriots can only go so far without the permission from Turkey. A message so subtle to foreigners yet so real to us.

Never accept the Pyla demands since they are only one-sided and I would have gone so far so as to shutdown Ledra's for a month. Good strong symbols that you won;t accept 2 measures and that if this is gonna work then both have to tango. Otherwise Turkey will carry on believing that they can afford to be as reluctant and hardcore as they like to negotiate with and there will be no outside noise to condemn it.

DT, like it or not, Turkkan is quite right in his above assessment! All the rest is garbage rhetoric from people that do not grasp well the Cyprus problem!