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True colours of the Attila

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:13 pm

Bananiot wrote:Read Vasiliou's evaluation on the financial aspects of Annan Plan.


This is dead and buried. I was talking about a BBF True Federation and not a loose Banana Republic Confederacy.

If Confederacy is what will be offered, I suggest we all turn off our computers and switch the lights off as there is no point in discussing it as the tabled solution will be blocked by the referendum, as it was in 2004.

Lets face it, these current peace talks are all about exposing Turkey to the world as the belligerent perpetrators in not solving the Cyprob. It really has very little to do with finding a solution as these aspirations are pointless as far as Turkey's objectives are concerned. Time will tell.
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Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:37 pm

Paphitis wrote:Can someone please explain to me how this peaceful solution based on BBF is going to work, considering the fact that most TC are gainfully employed in a service orientated public service? When Turkey's handouts stop, will it be up to the GCs to pick up the tab?

So many people talk about BBF, but fail to address how it will work from an economic point of view. Is a BBF VIABLE?


Paphitis, throughout the years, plans have come and gone. each time our hope was filled with anguish; each plan has its good points and bad points. What is important about the Annan plan is that we, all of us, and as Greeks and Turks voted as a People, for our unity and our self determination. Now there is the opportunity, to stand up, as Cypriots, to negociate, and to fight with the reason that any 'virgin birth' is for Mankind beyond any limitation we place on ourselves as Nations.

...you guys dismiss enclaves because they are ugly, and yet you discuss percentages to tear the island in two; shame on you.

please, read the Manifesto.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16772
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Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:40 pm

...from another thread.

...for those who know me
I will try again...



we have an island.

it has a history, a solid line of habitation since the origins of Human population, in Neanderthal time.

This Cultural Heritage, no doubt is important to all Mankind, and as Stewards the island dwellers, Cypriots, have adapted to the Civilizations that have come and gone. Only recently, with the coming of the Modern Age, and the end of the Ottoman Empire have the feelings of Nationalism driven its majority by population to identify themselves exclusively as "Greeks", to become the adversary of "Turks".

Today, this relentless position of adversarial politics has led to the fall of a traitorous Junta, the transformation of Turkey into the region's strongest military power, and this island's dwellers, for the first time in all their history, they are torn from each other, and (worse) the Patrimony.

The loss is great with such an act of ignorance, and without a resolution that will allow for the betterment of relations, the world looses something that has thrived as a living Heritence for so long, all people suffer. What is needed in essence is quite simple. Basic Human Rights must be respected and the land must be protected with its relics having the Liberty which allows for their care..

As a starting point the Constitution of 1960 is still valid, and its principals are of the highest order, Bicommunal, allowing for people, as persons, their representation, while as Individuals, their Rights are defended by a State, where all citizens together stand united, and equal.

For whatever reason, enclaves became a part of this island's geography. Some might say that in them was founded the identity of Turcophones as Turkish Cypriots. No doubt, there is much bitterness, with the suffering that collectively, these people have passed, but it has served to galvanise their desire for freedom, to decide for themselves their own fate, and to join collectively with others in their love for this place, isolated by water all around it, an island after all, in agreement that as the population, they would free themselves from any subjugation as one People.

This much is true today. If anything the Referendum on the Annan Plan has proven, it is that both populations in this impasse choose to remain United, even if it as a Plan was rejected, they all voted, and willingly, for this one eventuality.

I propose that the island remain divided as it is.

And with the inclusion, once again, of enclaves into this geography, it is possible to institute the Bi-Zonal nature of its political identity, which has for so long eluded definition. Greek Cypriots will have as a choice, to return, as communities in the north, without harming the fabric of the Turkish Cypriot population living there. Turkish Cypriots will have enclaves as a part of their Jurisdiction in the south, allowing them to offer the Settlers Homes, rather than houses. Security for all Cypriots will be greatly increased because a reciprocal environment can exist for both as a majority having Jurisdiction over a territory, to demonstrate their inclusiveness in two mutually exclusive National Assemblies, demonstrating their respect of Human Rights, representing themselves democratically each citizen with one vote and equal, recognising the special needs of Minorities amongst them, as a majority a giving People.
(...it's a long sentence, (again); sorry)

Above these two governing bodies remains the Republic of Cyprus. It's Constitution reformed now free of the Communal Chamber, but Bicameral, with an Upper House having and equal number of seats for the two communities, so that their representation will serve as a countervailing power against a bias which may be caused by demographics in favour of a single National interest over another. The Lower House will serve the population as a Chamber of second thought where their greatest power, it's members, rests in the seats at Governmnt Committees they fill, as the elector's independant representative, allowing them to debate any Legislation in a transparent manner, while voting by consensus through a speaker for its passage.

A leader, to gain the Presidency must win with his Party a majority of seats in the Upper House. His or her origin is of no importance, except that their counterpart, the Vice-President must be of the other ethnicity represented.

The voter will have three votes. From each of three slates, the voter will choose one candidate as their representative for their electoral riding.

Thus, the voter will have chosen an Independent (or regional) candidate from amongst themselves as a particular community to represent them in the Lower House.

Voting as well, for their Turkish Cypriot candidate and their Greek Cypriot candidate from the remaining two slates, where for the Upper House, Parties have offered these representatives for their Policy.

This is Bi-Zonal, and Bicommunal.


...p.s. do the math, this is a very elegant voting system for a legislature that will be fluid to the changing demographics of the future in representing its population, and by presenting to its citizens as Individuals, a single challenge to them, as Persons, they will work to apply these standards in their endeavours, at sustaining a National identity.
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Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:27 am

repulsewarrior wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Can someone please explain to me how this peaceful solution based on BBF is going to work, considering the fact that most TC are gainfully employed in a service orientated public service? When Turkey's handouts stop, will it be up to the GCs to pick up the tab?

So many people talk about BBF, but fail to address how it will work from an economic point of view. Is a BBF VIABLE?


Paphitis, throughout the years, plans have come and gone. each time our hope was filled with anguish; each plan has its good points and bad points. What is important about the Annan plan is that we, all of us, and as Greeks and Turks voted as a People, for our unity and our self determination. Now there is the opportunity, to stand up, as Cypriots, to negociate, and to fight with the reason that any 'virgin birth' is for Mankind beyond any limitation we place on ourselves as Nations.

...you guys dismiss enclaves because they are ugly, and yet you discuss percentages to tear the island in two; shame on you.

please, read the Manifesto.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16772


I understand where you are coming from with regards to permanent partition. The reason why I made mention of a permanent split and discussed percentages was to see whether the TCs, such as VP, are willing to compromise and discuss the re-distribution of land in order to achieve Permanent Partition as a viable solution. It is also interesting to see the response from others about Permanent partition as a viable option as at the moment, I myself am toying with the concept as a possible realistic and workable outcome. I have no doubt that many may find Permanent Partition unpalitable.

So far VP has remained silent on the subject. I will take this as meaning the the TCs are unwilling to compromise in order to achieve this outcome that some so desire. I am also of the opinion that most TCs would be against permanent partition.

Permanent Partition should not be discounted as a viable solution, provided that the land split is more fairly defined and that other criteria such as territorial seas and continental shelf are also defined. One thing is for sure, it is more workable than a complex BBF or Confederacy structure which could deem us defenceless in the face of any future shenanigans. And by imposing an unfair BBF democracy that favours the TC community over everyone else, could very easily open another very sad chapter in Cypriot history.

"Virgin Birth" will be a disaster for us IMHO. It leaves us defenceless to any future Turkish Action which is initiated to permanently split the Turkish Federated State from the Federation. It also changes the realities on the ground which would permit the international recognition of the separatist Turkish Federated State, as our side would have accepted this sorry state of affairs to begin with. Virgin Birth will lead us to Permanent Partition down the track, and leave us powerless to be able to do anything about it. Virgin Birth is not accepted by our President and is in fact a red line, for understandable reasons as mentioned above. Virgin Birth is nothing short of complete surrender to Turkey.
Last edited by Paphitis on Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby utu » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:33 am

All of these talks about solutions rests upon one small, but vital thing: what is defined by either side as 'reasonable'. As long as one side fears assimilation from the other and the other side fears too much given up to a numerical minority, there is not going to be a common definition of 'reasonable'. A solution depends upon some painful decisions having to be made on both sides. The politicians have no stomach for it, so it has to be up to the people on both sides to bridge the gap. Anything less would just be whistling in the wind...
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Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:46 am

utu wrote:All of these talks about solutions rests upon one small, but vital thing: what is defined by either side as 'reasonable'. As long as one side fears assimilation from the other and the other side fears too much given up to a numerical minority, there is not going to be a common definition of 'reasonable'. A solution depends upon some painful decisions having to be made on both sides. The politicians have no stomach for it, so it has to be up to the people on both sides to bridge the gap. Anything less would just be whistling in the wind...


And what is your idea of reasonable, Utu?
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Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:16 am

did you guys read the Manifesto?

can you identify a Solution which is more suited in demonstrating our commitment to bettering for Mankind the condition of our living. To have Freewill, to live as a Cypriot, united, one Individual equal to all the others; and to be a Person where my identity sustains itself within the community I choose to call my own.

This is Bicommunal, with two levels of Government (, and in our case three governing bodies).

...and what does Bizonal mean, in our case, if it does not mean cutting the island in two?

how is this going to reflect on our denial over fifty years that the displaced are owed their due?

moreso, we need to regain our esteem, and our dignity as a People, by allowing at least some to return as communities.
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Postby utu » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:20 am

Paphitis wrote:
utu wrote:All of these talks about solutions rests upon one small, but vital thing: what is defined by either side as 'reasonable'. As long as one side fears assimilation from the other and the other side fears too much given up to a numerical minority, there is not going to be a common definition of 'reasonable'. A solution depends upon some painful decisions having to be made on both sides. The politicians have no stomach for it, so it has to be up to the people on both sides to bridge the gap. Anything less would just be whistling in the wind...


And what is your idea of reasonable, Utu?


Call this too idealistic, but my views are thus:

1. Using the canton system as exists in Switzerland as a basis for government in Cyprus. ALL FOUR population groups (Greek, Turk, Armenian, Maronite) have equal representation in an upper house/senate whilst the lower house is elected proportionately. No head of state, but a council of state to run the government.

2. A total repudiation of any intent to absorb the island - or any part thereof - into either Greece or Turkey, and that both countries undertake the same through the signing and ratification of treaties.

3. Use of only one common language (English possibily) and dropping any official recognition of Greek or Turkish holidays and the like.

4. Repatriation of the bulk of the Anatolian settlers in the north to Turkey. Only exceptions would be those married to Cypriots. Immigration from Greece to be reviewed at the same time.

5. Redress of all property claims and grievances dating back to December 1963 through an inter-Cypriot property commission.

6. Truth and Reconciliation commission to redress crimes committed by both sides. The commission to have the power to grant amnesties.

7. A new constitution containing a bill of rights to safeguard minority rights whilst allowing for freedom of movement for all Cypriots throughout the island.

8. No Cypriot military forces, and no armed forces allowed from either Greece or Turkey. This includes eventual British cession of the BSA's. EU military deployments on the island only in order to maintain the peace, and to protect Cyprus against attack from outside.

9. State to be secular in nature. No religious involvement in government.
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Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:03 am

Paphitis when you say "virgin birth" you give Talat some credibility, as though we know what it means. When I say "virgin birth" i tell you mine. Talat wants a "virgin birth", and without a definition it is not a bad way of defining the unknown; if we are willing to believe that with this impasse things will have to change in ways unknown to us at present. that is all the credence we can give this desire...

quit judging and read, did you get passed the first sentence?

it is not that hard to understand, and it is based on all the other proposals for a Solution to the Problem.

c'mon guys, i write to Christofias whenever I feel that I can offer help. i'd like to write to Talat but i can't find an e-mail for him that works.

this manifesto is you; believe it or not

VP and a guy named Dhavlos were the first to offer me a dialog, in giving me their ideas, now a few years ago.
i have changed, my attitude of mind, because i have the courage to overcome my own fear, (my humble advice to those who are afraid) and
yet the Principal has never changed, for me at least, since '74, when the spots on the map of Cyprus first
appeared as a way of defining Bizonal; and thus the confidence that this idea is sound. Although few support my
view publicly the PM's are warming.
although i have been ignored for the most part, you cannot dispute that as a system it works. the will is lacking
because it seems that what we expect is more of the same.

would you choose Partition over my Manifesto?

it is important that they, our two leaders, have this support. please don't sit around feeling helpless, think. help me, act. choose.
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Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:12 am

repulsewarrior wrote:did you guys read the Manifesto?

can you identify a Solution which is more suited in demonstrating our commitment to bettering for Mankind the condition of our living. To have Freewill, to live as a Cypriot, united, one Individual equal to all the others; and to be a Person where my identity sustains itself within the community I choose to call my own.

This is Bicommunal, with two levels of Government (, and in our case three governing bodies).

...and what does Bizonal mean, in our case, if it does not mean cutting the island in two?

how is this going to reflect on our denial over fifty years that the displaced are owed their due?

moreso, we need to regain our esteem, and our dignity as a People, by allowing at least some to return as communities.


I have read your manifesto. It is hard to envisage how an island of 10,000 sq. km and a population of less than a million, can be split into 3 governing bodies. Cyprus will end up being the most over governed country in the world. However, having said that, BBF is workable as long as the BBF has a strong central government responsible for the collection of taxes, defence and security, and foreign affairs. The BBF should not be "virgin birth" but be an evolution of the current republic. It is much more ideal, if all Cypriots are mature enough to accept the total integration and intermingling of both GCs and TCs. So overall, I think your plan is not something I would be pushing for IMHO. As for the displaced, well what can I say. Perhaps you are better off asking this question of refugees, because only then will you get an answer which does justice to their pain. I am not a refugee, so my opinion is not as qualified as a response from a refugee. My wish is for all refugees to return, and if this can not be achieved, then we need to come to terms with other realities such as facilitating adequate compensation for loss of property and enjoyment, pain and suffering not just in a material sense, but also one that allows for other psychological factors caused by being uprooted.

I must say that your manifesto is well intended, in that your main objective and focus is to facilitate the return of all displaced. Something that we all desire. But IMHO, your plan lacks a lot of detail on the islands administration and power sharing. Your support for "virgin birth" is also ill conceived IMHO. Complex systems of government which are also unbalanced in that they favour 1 community over the other, is something which will effect the viability of the nation in a functional sense.

I commend your values on the displaced. :wink:
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