Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Kifeas

From a personal point of view, I would not really want to live on the south.

Why?

Although I know I will be welcomed by the majority of gc’s I still feel that a certain sector of gc society would try and make my stay there uncomfortable.

I also believe that many gc’s would not want to live in the north for similar reasons.

Any comments on this will be welcomed.

The right conditions should be created for people from both communities to be able to live in both states. This should be part of the agreement.

What you do not like from the south that will make you not comfortable to live?

Of course if we all (GCs and TCs) say that we cannot live in each others state, then we must agree on a federal solution or partition that will give the TCs a territory no bigger than 18%. I hope you agree with me on that.

[erolz]

Erol,
The above paragraph which you isolated and quoted was taken from a larger text which was made within the context of a discussion that I have with turkcyp. In this discussion we were debating the issue of strict bi-communality for which turkcyp is a fervent advocate. In that paragraph I was parallelising my views vs. turkcyp and I was clearly referring to how imo an E.U. member state should treat its citizens. I even quoted a passage from the new E.U. constitution.

What you are referring to, with the introduction of the nation state issue, has very little to do with what we were discussing. It is a totally different issue.

Maybe I am over sensative here and maybe my point is out of context of your discussion, but the fact remains that I have in the past here been accused of being hypocritical for calling Piratis racist for saying the only thing turks know how to do is kill steal and rape and been accused of being racist myself and wating a racist solution in Cyprus (by Piratis as well as others like othellos), simply because I have stated that a federal solution has to have an element of 'ethnicity' as the basis of the component states if it is to have any useful role in a Cyprus solution. A federal system that creates two component states both of which end up numericaly dominated by GCV is pointless as far as I am concerned. So forgive me if I am keen to point out that such a basis of protected ethnicity in component states in CYprus is not more or less racists in ideolgoy and philosphy than the concept of a nation state (or country). To me arguments that it is racist in any component state within Cyprus but not racist in a nation state is to me logicaly inconsistent and matches an objective not of anti racism but an objective of trying to find 'arguments' to oppose a federal solution because the opposer does not want a federal solution at all (as far as that represents any form of political equality for TC community in Cyprus).

So in summary I would support (and pretty much do) an 'ideology' that there should be no countires, no nationality, no differentiation based on ethnicity and no peoples other than the human race. What I do not support is the application of such an ideolgoy (as an ideolgical / moral position) in Cyprus but not outside it. That to me is not an ideology but just a 'convience' worn where it benefits the wearer and discarded when it does not.

Turkcyp is a supporter of strict bi-communality. I am not. What about you?

It depends what you mean by 'strict bi-communality'. For me the import thing is that TC community is protected from political domination by the GC community on issue that affect the TC community differently to the GC community. I am happy for this protection to be vested in the (proposed) TCCS and not the TC community directly and also happy for the TCCS to not be ethnicaly pure. However if political protection is to be vested in the TCCS and not the TC community directly then there has to be some guarantee that TC remain dpominant numericaly in the TCCS. I do not think this makes me racist. As far as this is racist I see it as no more racist than the very concept of mondern nation states (countries) is racist and I definately do not consider it racist in the way saying all a certain race knows how to do is kill steal and rape.

[erolz]

Why?

I do not want to live in the south because I live in the North. It is where my father and grandfather lived and were born and where I now live. It is also a fact that the North is currently (but this is rapidly changing) less 'developed', less comercially exploited than the south and for me this is a positive not a negative. Also the North is nicer than the south We have better mountains and better beaches

The right conditions should be created for people from both communities to be able to live in both states. This should be part of the agreement.

I have no problem with provided there is some guarantee that the TCCS can not end up numericaly dominated by GC as well as the GCCS.

Of course if we all (GCs and TCs) say that we cannot live in each others state, then we must agree on a federal solution or partition that will give the TCs a territory no bigger than 18%. I hope you agree with me on that.

I agree that if we are to have an agreed partition then we (TC) need to give back some of the land we currently control. I do not know what the correct fair % should be because I do not have the information to base this on and have not really persued finding it. If you say it's 18% then for now I'll agree on that but if agreed partition is a serious potential I would probably seek such confirmation as to what is 'rightly' ours in terms of % of land (and % of types of land and value of land etc).

[gabaston]

Kifeas

I can understand why you want 18%

I am not going to comment simply because I don’t know enough on the matter. And you make it sound simple. This problem probably started before you and I were born, so we really don’t know the truth, or the figures, or the reasons, For example some say that the british encouraged migrants from mainland Greece to settle in Cyprus in order to help put the final nails in the Ottoman coffin, this is not improbable. Some say that in excess 30% of cypriot land was tc in 1960, here again neither you nor I really know.

I think any final percentage as such, will be banged out between politicians, should that figure ever come to be discussed.
Right now I think that papadopoulos is arming himself with arrest warrants and the tc administration is arming itself with as much Eu and USA support it can get for the next round, which I think will be the final round.

[Kifeas]

Why?

I do not want to live in the south because I live in the North. It is where my father and grandfather lived and were born and where I now live. It is also a fact that the North is currently (but this is rapidly changing) less 'developed', less comercially exploited than the south and for me this is a positive not a negative. Also the North is nicer than the south We have better mountains and better beaches

Erol, you are quoting wrong people. I am not the one who asked the above why, but gabaston.

But since you mentioned the above, I have to tell you that I originate from the north as much as you originate, if not more. In fact, I was born there, I learned there how to walk, run, play, swim and I first went to school. It is also the place where my parents, grand parents and grand-grand parents were all born and lived. Therefore the north belongs to me as much it belongs to you, if not more.

Of course if we all (GCs and TCs) say that we cannot live in each others state, then we must agree on a federal solution or partition that will give the TCs a territory no bigger than 18%. I hope you agree with me on that.

I agree that if we are to have an agreed partition then we (TC) need to give back some of the land we currently control. I do not know what the correct fair % should be because I do not have the information to base this on and have not really persued finding it. If you say it's 18% then for now I'll agree on that but if agreed partition is a serious potential I would probably seek such confirmation as to what is 'rightly' ours in terms of % of land (and % of types of land and value of land etc).

Erol, do not get into this discussion of what amount of land owned, value of land, etc, because you will end up with less than 18%. Trust me on that.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas

I can understand why you want 18%

I am not going to comment simply because I don’t know enough on the matter. And you make it sound simple. This problem probably started before you and I were born, so we really don’t know the truth, or the figures, or the reasons, For example some say that the british encouraged migrants from mainland Greece to settle in Cyprus in order to help put the final nails in the Ottoman coffin, this is not improbable. Some say that in excess 30% of cypriot land was tc in 1960, here again neither you nor I really know.

I think any final percentage as such, will be banged out between politicians, should that figure ever come to be discussed.
Right now I think that papadopoulos is arming himself with arrest warrants and the tc administration is arming itself with as much Eu and USA support it can get for the next round, which I think will be the final round.

gabaston,

Before 1571, TCs owned 0% of Cyprus land.

From the early 1900's TCs owned private land (and in this I include efkaf,) close to their population percentage. From 1960 and on, when the RoC was formed, TCs were always 18% of the population and they owned land approximately analogous to their population ratio. These are facts from the British and the early RoC records.

[Kifeas]

Turkcyp is a supporter of strict bi-communality. I am not. What about you?

It depends what you mean by 'strict bi-communality'. For me the import thing is that TC community is protected from political domination by the GC community on issue that affect the TC community differently to the GC community. I am happy for this protection to be vested in the (proposed) TCCS and not the TC community directly and also happy for the TCCS to not be ethnicaly pure. However if political protection is to be vested in the TCCS and not the TC community directly then there has to be some guarantee that TC remain dpominant numericaly in the TCCS. I do not think this makes me racist. As far as this is racist I see it as no more racist than the very concept of mondern nation states (countries) is racist and I definately do not consider it racist in the way saying all a certain race knows how to do is kill steal and rape.

Erol,
Can you comment on what I wrote in the thread below and tell me whether this can fell within your parameters.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=26339#26339

[erolz]

But since you mentioned the above, I have to tell you that I originate from the north as much as you originate, if not more. In fact, I was born there, I learned there how to walk, run, play, swim and I first went to school. It is also the place where my parents, grand parents and grand-grand parents were all born and lived. Therefore the north belongs to me as much it belongs to you, if not more.

I have never said that the North was more mine than yours> I simply answered the question why I would not want to live in the south (whoever asked it).

Erol, do not get into this discussion of what amount of land owned, value of land, etc, because you will end up with less than 18%. Trust me on that.

If you say so. Basically I have little interest in establisihing what would be a fair % of land if there was to be agreed partition because I do not believe such an offer is on the table now, or ever has been as far as GC admins since before 1960 onwards are concerned. However it was a realistic proposal and I believed that we were not entitled to even 18% then I would personally accept that lower figure. I do not think I am a theif and I know I have no motive in trying to profit from GC loss. What I currently own has been paid for from the sweat and labour of my father and mothers effort. Neither they nor I have stolen anything from GC as far as I am concerned.

[erolz]

Erol,
Can you comment on what I wrote in the thread below and tell me whether this can fell within your parameters.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=26339#26339

Well assuming that your % are correct, which I personaly cannot comment on - I have no problem with a TCCS that has a minority of GC in it (25% or 33%) or for the size of the bi zonal regions to expand according to the number of GC in the TCCS. My only concern is if this 'protection' of TC numercial dominance in the TCCS is 'unchallengable' under ECHR or other EU rules.

On the issue of repatriating Turkish mainland settlers I am personaly against any futher forced movement of people. If people do have to leave homes they are in they should be helped rent or buy similar properties as close as possible if they wish to remain. If the cost of this is you insist that the size of the TCCS should relate to population figures of TC community in 74 or 63 or 60 (+any GC community that are part of TCCS) and not the actual population today of TC community + mainland settlers then so be it.

[-mikkie2-]

I have never said that the North was more mine than yours> I simply answered the question why I would not want to live in the south (whoever asked it).

This was your reply to Kifeas.

And previously to that you said

Also the North is nicer than the south We have better mountains and better beaches

What do you mean by 'we'? Your statement to Kifeas simply contradicts itself. Do you mean to say that the north is now yours (menaing TC's)? Are you accepting and agreeing that what was taken away from the rightful owners of land in the north is ok?

You are in my view still fixated by having two ethically pure regions in Cyprus and using the pretext of 'nation states' as a way of justifying this separation.

The main bone of contention for TC's in the past has been political equality. You can have your political equality. Nobody begrudges that. It does not mean that you have to userp the rightful owners of land and property in the north. Most GC's don't care about the political setup of a future Cyprus. WHat they do care about is to have back what is rightfully theirs. What you have now is not rightfully yours to keep!