Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

No! It is your entire TC media and politicians which report all these figures.

So another hearsay, cause I do not remember any TC media and/or any other politician conducting such a survey as well...

Anyway, the point is this if you assume 35% emigration rate to overseas. You can get 90k, if you assume 50% rate you can get 75k, if you assume pozitif rate you can even get more than 140k.

The point is any assumption should be based on rational reasoning. I have explained my reasoning in this forum so many times, how I make my assumptions.

GCs on the other hand had never explained their reasoning of how they reach to this 35% figure. Try it once. may be you can convince me that your assumptions are more rational, then mine and I start believing that TCs as you said are only 90k in the whole island.

What reasoning my friend?
I say there was positive migration and you say there was negative.
I base my assumptions on TC publications, reproduced in the GC media. This issue and this reporting goes on and on for years now. I have never come across any publication that speaks of negative migration. I always come across positive migration which is expected around 35%. If you subtract 35% from 147 thousand people you will get 95 thousand.

[MicAtCyp]

Does anybody know when exactly Belgium joined the EU?
I remember back in 1982 (?) Belgium was at the verge of collapsing and that was on the news every day. What saved it the last minute was their joining the EU.

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[erolz]

On the other hand, I belong exactly to the opposite camp. I think and function on the basis of multiculturalism, pluralism and contemporary European ideals. I consider it totally anachronistic and unacceptable from a moral (ethical,) ideological and philosophical perspective, to segregate people on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, language and cultural orientation and consequently administrate political rights on such a basis.

You do not believe in nation states then?

Nation states are as 'racist' a concept as 'bi communality' is in Cyprus. No more and no less. If you want to start a campaign to apply your 'morals' equally accross the globe then I am with you. If you want to apply them selectively in Cyprus as a means of securing your communites desires over those of the TC communites then I am not.

[Kifeas]

On the other hand, I belong exactly to the opposite camp. I think and function on the basis of multiculturalism, pluralism and contemporary European ideals. I consider it totally anachronistic and unacceptable from a moral (ethical,) ideological and philosophical perspective, to segregate people on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, language and cultural orientation and consequently administrate political rights on such a basis.

You do not believe in nation states then?

Nation states are as 'racist' a concept as 'bi communality' is in Cyprus. No more and no less. If you want to start a campaign to apply your 'morals' equally accross the globe then I am with you. If you want to apply them selectively in Cyprus as a means of securing your communites desires over those of the TC communites then I am not.

It depends on what you mean by "nation states"?

I am not sure how you define the term?

[erolz]

It depends on what you mean by "nation states"?

I am not sure how you define the term?

I mean modern day countries.

Every country is based ideolgicaly on the concept of 'ethnecity'. Certainly most modern countries accept a certain degree of multiculturalism (as most TC are happy for in a TCCS in Cyprus I beleive) but in my view there is not one (country) that would happily allow or welcome such an ethnic basis for the country to be eroded totaly. England is primarily occupied by people of English ethnicity. Even the slight erosion of this that has been experienced so far in England had led to protest and a backlash. Suggest that England should have no ethnic basis and most english people, even the majority of 'liberals' would I suspect disagree.

If your thesis is that nations states (countries) are based ideolgiocaly on 'racist' principals and you argue there should be no countires just a single common humanity, with anyone free to move and live and work anywhere in the world then I would support you. If however your thesis is that bi commuinialty within Cyprus is inthernetly racist but outside it it is not, then I am afraid I consdier such a view is not based on ideolgical and philiosphical notions of anti racsim and human freedom, but more on convinece to 'justify' GC resistance to a bicommunal solution in Cyprus as a way forward (and not necessarily a final end goal).

[Kifeas]

On the other hand, I belong exactly to the opposite camp. I think and function on the basis of multiculturalism, pluralism and contemporary European ideals. I consider it totally anachronistic and unacceptable from a moral (ethical,) ideological and philosophical perspective, to segregate people on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, language and cultural orientation and consequently administrate political rights on such a basis.

You do not believe in nation states then?

Nation states are as 'racist' a concept as 'bi communality' is in Cyprus. No more and no less. If you want to start a campaign to apply your 'morals' equally accross the globe then I am with you. If you want to apply them selectively in Cyprus as a means of securing your communites desires over those of the TC communites then I am not.

Erol,
The above paragraph which you isolated and quoted was taken from a larger text which was made within the context of a discussion that I have with turkcyp. In this discussion we were debating the issue of strict bi-communality for which turkcyp is a fervent advocate. In that paragraph I was parallelising my views vs. turkcyp and I was clearly referring to how imo an E.U. member state should treat its citizens. I even quoted a passage from the new E.U. constitution.

What you are referring to, with the introduction of the nation state issue, has very little to do with what we were discussing. It is a totally different issue.

Turkcyp is a supporter of strict bi-communality. I am not. What about you?

[magikthrill]

What are you a supporter of Kifeas?

[Kifeas]

What are you a supporter of Kifeas?

I am a supporter of a bizonal and partially bi-communal (expressed through a form of guaranteed bizonality) federation, along the lines of other existing federations in Europe.

Depending on the territorial size of the TC federal state, there should be an analogous percentage of the population of the TC state originating from the GC community. In other words, if the TCs can accept that only up to 25% of the total TC state’s population may originate from the GC community, then the territorial size of the TC state can only be up to 24% of the total territory of Cyprus. If the TCs do not want to accept any (zero) GCs to live within the TC state, then the territorial size of the TC state will be 18% of the total territory of Cyprus.

I am a supporter of a bizonal and partially bi-communal (expressed through a form of guaranteed bizonality) federation, along the lines of other existing federations in Europe.

Depending on the territorial size of the TC federal state, there should be an analogous percentage of the population of the TC state originating from the GC community. In other words, if the TCs can accept that only up to 25% of the total TC state’s population may originate from the GC community, then the territorial size of the TC state can only be up to 24% of the total territory of Cyprus. If the TCs can accept that only up to 33% of the total TC state’s population may originate from the GC community, then the territorial size of the TC state can only be up to 27% of the total territory of Cyprus. If the TCs do not want to accept any (zero) GCs to live within the TC state, then the territorial size of the TC state will be 18% of the total territory of Cyprus.

The number of settlers that will remain in Cyprus and will be give Cypriot citizenship should not make the total TC population (after the solution) greater than 18% of the total. In other words if the GCs are at the moment around 690 thousands and this is equivalent to 82% of the total then the total TC population (including settlers) should be around 152 thousand. That means that most settlers will have to be adequately compensated by turkey and repatriated.

Any percentage of GCs that will be included with the TC state's population, should have all political rights, both in the local (state) level and in the federal level, like any other citizen of the TC state. This should be the case both for the federal senate and the federal House of Representatives.

Any percentage of GCs that will be included with the TC state's population, should have all political rights, both in the local (state) level and in the federal level, like any other citizen of the TC state. This should be the case both for the federal senate and the federal House of Representatives.

Only the two federated states (not the communities as such) should enjoy political equality.

There can be a long-term derogation (as long as it is necessary) on GC movement from the GC state into the TC state, limiting the number of GCs obtaining TC state citizenship at the agreed percentage levels.

[gabaston]

Kifeas

From a personal point of view, I would not really want to live on the south.

Why?

Although I know I will be welcomed by the majority of gc’s I still feel that a certain sector of gc society would try and make my stay there uncomfortable.

I also believe that many gc’s would not want to live in the north for similar reasons.

Any comments on this will be welcomed.