Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[Agios Amvrosios]

I am not sure if my memory serves me right but are you not a self confessed Danktash Voter?

Anyone who believes that Ethnic cleansing is a starting point for "negotiations", as perpertrated against the Christian ethnic groups of Cyprus in the Occupied areas,in not only a hardliner but also someone who condones or justifies war crimes and has no respect for the Geneva Convention.

[MicAtCyp]

Of course by the way it was a pure luck that
majority of expropriations on done in south for civil
projects turn out to be TC properties. Source? Some
things can not be said.

From 1974 up until today there were expropriated 94, 000 decaria of land. Out of them 79, 000 belonged to GCs and 15, 000 to TCs. The percentage is 84% GC and 16% TC.


Source:Politis newspaper Sunday 14/9/03!

PS. 1 Scala=0.33 acres=0.1338 Hectares. I think decaria is 1/10th of a scala.

[Kifeas]

With you perhaps yes! With Turkcyp I am affraid never!

Hmm...
Sorry to say this but if you can not struck a deal with people like me then pretty much you have no hope then. Sorry but that is true...

Let me ask a candid question,

At which part during our debates in this forum you have decided that I am a hardliner. ( I am using hardliner but you can use whatever word you want instead.) I mean which of my solution ideas you deem unacceptable?

Thanks in advance,

TurkCyp,
Unfortunately we belong to two completely opposite ideological, political and philosophical worlds. Politically and ideologically you originate from the Ottoman and Medieval times. You support the institutionalization and maintenance into perpetuity of the Ottoman system of “millet-devlet,” in Cyprus of the 21st century and the E.U. You envision the permanent segregation of people on the basis of “ethnic” origin, religion and language. You support the return back to the 1960 constitution simply because it provides the existence of the so-called communal councils which will play the determining role of his racial segregation. So much is your obsession with this “principle” that you are willing to “sacrifice” bizonality, should it be needed, in order to safeguard the maintenance of “millet-devlet.”

On the other hand, I belong exactly to the opposite camp. I think and function on the basis of multiculturalism, pluralism and contemporary European ideals. I consider it totally anachronistic and unacceptable from a moral (ethical,) ideological and philosophical perspective, to segregate people on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, language and cultural orientation and consequently administrate political rights on such a basis.

This is our essential difference, which makes me skeptical whether we two could ever find common ground to agree on a solution. I said many times that I am willing to look at alternative and indirect ways in which the TC’s need for an effective political decision-making power will be satisfied. I even made suggestions towards this direction. However, you did not want to even look at them. You remained to the end a fervent and uncompromising supporter of your “millet-devlet” obsession.

You even refuse to look at the new European concept of thinking, as it is portrait in the E.U. constitution, which rules out your approach as completely unacceptable.

Code: Select all

PART II THE CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE UNION
TITLE III EQUALITY

Article II-80 Equality before the law

Everyone is equal before the law.

Article II-81 Non-discrimination

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

2. Within the scope of application of the Constitution and without prejudice to any of its specific provisions, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/en/part17_en.htm

[garbitsch]

Belgian Constitution:

Art. 67

§ 1. Without prejudice to Article 72, the Senate is made up of seventy-one senators, of whom:

1° twenty-five senators elected in conformity with Article 61, by the Dutch electoral college;

2° fifteen senators elected in conformity with Article 61, by the French electoral college;

3° ten senators appointed by and within the Council of the Flemish Community, named the Flemish Council.

4° ten senators appointed by and within the Council of the French Community.

5° one senator appointed by and within the Council of the German Community.

6° six senators appointed by the senators referred to in 1° and 3°;

7° four senators appointed by the senators referred to in 2° and 4°.

§ 2. At least one of the senators referred to in §1, 1°, 3° and 6° is to be legally resident, on the day of his election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital.

At least six of the senators referred to in §1, 2°, 4° and 7° are to be legally resident, on the day of their election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-
Capital. If four or fewer of the senators referred to in §1, 2° are not legally resident, on the day of their election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-
Capital, at least two of the senators referred to in §1, 4° must be legally resident, on the day of their election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital.

Art. 68

Kifeas, according to your minimalistic approach, Belgium had already violated the EU constitution.

[Kifeas]

Belgian Constitution:

Art. 67

§ 1. Without prejudice to Article 72, the Senate is made up of seventy-one senators, of whom:

1° twenty-five senators elected in conformity with Article 61, by the Dutch electoral college;

2° fifteen senators elected in conformity with Article 61, by the French electoral college;

3° ten senators appointed by and within the Council of the Flemish Community, named the Flemish Council.

4° ten senators appointed by and within the Council of the French Community.

5° one senator appointed by and within the Council of the German Community.

6° six senators appointed by the senators referred to in 1° and 3°;

7° four senators appointed by the senators referred to in 2° and 4°.

§ 2. At least one of the senators referred to in §1, 1°, 3° and 6° is to be legally resident, on the day of his election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital.

At least six of the senators referred to in §1, 2°, 4° and 7° are to be legally resident, on the day of their election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-
Capital. If four or fewer of the senators referred to in §1, 2° are not legally resident, on the day of their election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-
Capital, at least two of the senators referred to in §1, 4° must be legally resident, on the day of their election, in the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital.

Art. 68

Kifeas, according to your minimalistic approach, Belgium had already violated the EU constitution.

Perhaps the Belgian constitution indeed violates the E.U. constitution. If this is the case then it will have to be changed one day. It will only take for one person to take the issue to the European communities court.

I will not rush to this conclusion yet.
Can you provide the definitions of what constitutes the a) Dutch electoral college; b) French electoral college; c) Flemish Council d) Council of the French Community e) Council of the German Community?

This is the Critical question.

[garbitsch]

This is a bit too long, but I hope it helps:

Chapter IV


On Communities and Regions



Section I

On Bodies

Sub-section I

On Community and Regional Councils
Art. 115

§ 1. There is a French Community Council and a Flemish Community Council, named Flemish Council, the composition and the functioning of which are established by law, adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

There is a German Community Council, the composition and the functioning of which are determined by law.

§ 2. Without prejudice to Article 137, regional bodies as described in Article 39 comprise a Council for each region.

Art. 116

§ 1. The Councils are composed of elected representatives.

§ 2. Each Community Council is composed of members elected directly as members of the concerned community council or as members of a regional council.

The application of Article 137 notwithstanding, each regional council is composed of members elected directly as members of the regional council concerned or as members of a community council.

Art. 117

Council members are elected for a period of five years.

The councils are completely renewed every five years.

Unless a law, adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph, should specify otherwise, council elections are to take place on the same day and are to coincide with European Parliamentary elections.

Art. 118

§ 1. Elections described in Article 116, § 2, as well as the composition and functioning of Councils are fixed by law. But for the German Community Council, this law is adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

§ 2. A law, adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph, establishes those matters relative to the election, composition, and functioning of the French Community Council, of the Walloon Regional Council and of the Flemish Community Council, which are regulated by their respective councils, either by decree or by ruling as described in Article 134, according to the case. This decree and this ruling as described in Article 134 are adopted by a two-thirds majority vote, provided that a majority of members of the council concerned are present.

Art. 118bis

Within the national borders, the members of the Regional and Community Councils, referred to in Articles 2 and 3, shall have the right to move without expense over any and all means of transportation which are operated by and conceded to government authorities.

Art. 119

A Council member’s mandate is incompatible with that of a member of the Chamber of Representatives. Moreover, it is incompatible with a Senator’s mandate as described in Article 67, § 1, 1°, 2°, 6°, and 7°.

Art. 120

All council members benefit from those immunities described in Articles 58 and 59.


Sub-section II

On regional and community governments.
Art. 121

§ 1. There is a French Community Government and a Flemish Community Government, the composition and functioning of which are established by law, adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

There is a German Community Government, the composition and
functioning of which are established by law.

§ 2. Without prejudice to Article 137, the regional bodies described in Article 39 include a government for each region.

Art. 122

Members of each community or regional government are elected by their councils.

Art. 123

§ 1. The law establishes the composition and functioning of Community and of Regional governments. But for the case of the German Community Government, this law is adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

§2. A law, adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last
paragraph, determines those matters relative to the composition and to the functioning of the French Community Government, the Walloon Regional
Government, and the Flemish Community Government, which are regulated by their respective councils, either by decree or by ruling as described in
Article 134, according to the case. This decree and this ruling described in Article 134 are adopted by a two-thirds majority vote, provided that a
majority of members of the council concerned are present.


Art. 124

No member of a community or of a regional government may be
prosecuted or pursued on the basis of opinions or votes expressed by him in the line of his duties.

Art. 125

Regional and community councils possess the right to accuse members of their respective governments and to confront the latter before the Supreme Court of Appeal which alone may judge them, chambers together, but for that which is statuted by law regarding the exercising of civil suits by victimized parties and concerning crimes and misdeeds which regional or community government members may have committed outside the line of their duties.

A law shall determine the cases of responsibility, the sentences to be passed upon members of regional or community governments, in addition to the
manner of proceeding against them, either on the basis of the accusations
expressed by their Councils or on the basis of a civil suit engaged by a victimized party.

Those laws described in paragraphs 1 and 2 must be adopted by a majority vote, as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

Temporary Disposition

Until being covered by the law described in paragraph 2, regional and community councils possess the discretionary power to accuse a member of their government, and the Supreme Court of Appeal to judge the latter in those cases described in penal law and through the application of penalties
stipulated therein.

Art. 126

Constitutional dispositions relative to regional and community government members, in addition to those executory laws described in Article 125, last paragraph, apply to regional secretaries of state.


Section II

On responsibilities

Sub-Section I

On community responsibility
Art. 127

§ 1. The French and Dutch Community Councils, respectively, establish by decree:

1° cultural issues;

2° education, with the exception of:

a) the determination of the beginning and of the end of mandatory scholarity;

b) minimum standards for the granting of diplomas;

c) attribution of pensions;

3° inter-community co-operation, in addition to international co-operation, including the drafting of treaties for those matters described in 1° and 2°.

A law adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph, establishes those cultural matters described in 1°, types of co-operation
described in 3°, in addition to terms governing the conclusion of treaties
described in 3°.

§ 2. These decrees have force of law in French-language and in Dutch-language regions respectively, as well as in those institutions established in the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital which, on account of their activities, must be considered as belonging exclusively to one community or the other.


Art. 128

§ 1. The French and Flemish Community Councils rule by decree, in as much as each is concerned, on personal issues, in addition to what is included in such issues, matters of inter-communal and international cooperation,
including the ratification of treaties.

A law adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph, establishes such personal issues, in addition to the various forms of cooperation and the terms governing ratification of treaties.

§ 2. These decrees have force of law in French-language and in Dutch-language regions respectively, as well as in those institutions established in

the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital which, on account of their activities, must be considered as belonging exclusively to one community or the other, unless a law adopted by majority vote as provided for in Article 4, last
paragraph, makes other provisions with regard to those institutions in the
bilingual region of Brussels-Capital.

Art. 129

§ 1. The French and Dutch Community Councils rule by decree, inasmuch as each is concerned, excluding the federal legislator, on the use of language for:

1° administrative matters;

2° education in those establishments created, subsidized, and recognized by public authorities;

3° social relations between employers and their personnel, in addition to corporate acts and documents required by law and by regulations.

§ 2. These decrees have force of law in French-language and in Dutch-language regions respectively except as concerns:

- those communes or groups of communes contiguous to another linguistic region and in which the law prescribes or allows use of another language than that of the region in which they are located. For these communes, a modification of the rules governing the use of languages as described in §1 may take place only through a law adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last
paragraph.

- services the activities of which extend beyond the linguistic region within which they are established;

- federal and international institutions designated by law, the activities of which are common to more than one community.

Art. 130

§ 1. The German Community Council rules by decree on:

1° cultural issues;

2° personal issues;

3° education, within the limits established by Article 127, §1,
paragraph 1, 2°;

4° inter-community co-operation, in addition to international co-operation, including the conclusion of treaties, for issues described in 1°, 2°, and 3°.

The law establishes cultural and personal issues described in 1° and 2°, in addition to the forms of co-operation described in 4° and the manner in which treaties are concluded.

§ 2. These decrees have force of law in the German-language region.

Art. 131

The law determines measures designed to prevent all forms of discrimination for ideological or philosophical reasons.

Art. 132

The right of initiative belongs to the Community Government and to
members of the Community Council.

Art. 133

The interpretation of decrees by voice of authority belongs solely to the decree.


Sub-Section II

On regional responsibility
Art. 134

Laws executed on the basis of Article 39 determine the judicial force of the rules which the organs that they create may take in matters which they determine.

They may confer the power to decree with force of law to these organs, with the responsibilities and in the manner which they establish.


Sub-Section III

Special Dispositions
Art. 135

A law adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph, designates those authorities within the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital which exercise those responsibilities not attributed to communities as described in Article 128, § 1.

Art. 136

There are linguistic groups within the Brussels-Capital Regional Council, and among the governing bodies, qualified with respect to community issues; their composition, functioning, and responsibilities and, without prejudice to Article 135, their financing, are regulated by a law adopted by majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

The governing bodies together form the United Governing Bodies, acting as an inter-community consultation and co-ordination organ.

Art. 137

In view of the application of Article 39, the French and Flemish Community Councils, in addition to their respective governments, may exercise the responsibilities, respectively, of the Walloon and of the Flemish Regional Governments, along the terms and according to those conditions established by law. This law must be adopted by a majority vote as described in Article 4, last paragraph.

Art. 138

The French Community Council, on one hand, and the Walloon Regional Council and the French linguistic group of the Brussels-Capital Regional
Council, on the other hand, may decide of common accord and each by decree, that the Walloon Regional Council and Government, in the French-language
region, and the Brussels-Capital Regional Council and it’s governing bodies in the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital may exercise, in full or in part, the
responsibilities of the French Community.

These decrees are adopted by a two-thirds majority vote within the French Community Council, and by absolute majority within the Walloon Regional Council and by the French linguistic group within the Brussels-Capital
Regional Council, provided that a majority of the Council members or of the members of the linguistic group concerned are present. They may settle the financing of the responsibilities which they designate, in addition to transfers of personnel, of assets, of rights and of obligations which may concern them. These responsibilities are exercised, according to the case, either by decree, by order, or by ruling.

Art. 139

Upon request by their respective governments, the German Community Council and the Walloon Regional Council may, by decree, decide of
common accord that Walloon Regional responsibilities may be exercised in whole or in part by the German Community Council and Government in the German-language region. These responsibilities may be exercised, according to the case, either by decree, by order, or by ruling.

Art. 140

The German Community Council and Government exercise by means of decrees and rulings all other responsibilities attributed by law.

Article 159 is applicable to these decrees and rulings.

P.S: If the court declares Belgian constitution violates the EU constitution, then the whole political system of Belgium collapses. I am quite sure that Belgians do know what they are doing...

[metecyp]

You even refuse to look at the new European concept of thinking, as it is portrait in the E.U. constitution, which rules out your approach as completely unacceptable.

Sorry my friend but I think you're trying to simplify the issue here. I don't think that turkcyp has "Ottoman" way of thinking and you have "European" way of thinking. Turkcyp has concerns for his community (like I do) and you have concerns for your community. He believes that ensuring bicommunality is the way to satisfy his community's concerns. I believe that ensuring bizonality along with bicommunality is the way to satisfy my community's concerns. For you, it's a different story. Your community is the majority so pluralism, pure democracy with no privliges, multiculturalism are all fair game because they cannot hurt your community. These words actually embellish your argument but we know your ultimate motive is to protect your community's interests.

We need to make sure we have a voice in Cyprus after 40 years of exclusion from decision-making. That's why we ask for safeguards which are completely compatible with EU values. If this is "Ottoman" way of thinking for you, let it be that but don't expect us to risk our future for the sake of "European" mentality.

[cannedmoose]

You guys quoting the Belgian constitution as 'violating' EU law are missing the point. While it is true that the EU has rules, regulations and laws, these aren't always implemented to the letter. Because of its situation, the Cypriot government went about implementing EU law in such a fashion, a practice not followed by the majority of other member states. As a result, it seems that some Cypriots believe that this is always the case, which it is not, go to France or Spain and see just how flexibly they interpret EU law. When it comes to a Cyprus solution, the EU has already signalled that it is prepared to be flexible in regard to its compatibility with the acquis, as it already is with cases such as the Belgian constitution, which is reflective of a historical national compromise designed to maintain Belgian unity, and not one that the EU would want to tamper with.

[metecyp]

When it comes to a Cyprus solution, the EU has already signalled that it is prepared to be flexible in regard to its compatibility with the acquis, as it already is with cases such as the Belgian constitution, which is reflective of a historical national compromise designed to maintain Belgian unity, and not one that the EU would want to tamper with.

We have a saying in Turkish: "Kraldan daha kralci" meaning someone is more of a king supporter than the king himself. That's exactly how GCs are about the EU. Many EU members supported the Annan plan and still does but according to our "kralci" GC friends, it's against the EU principles. But it's no surprise, these EU principles that they so much "love" embellish their arguments so let them be "kraldan daha kralci"