Cyprus-Forum.com

[tessintrnc]

Tess I love your Signature.

go raibh míle maith agat (thank you very much)

[Kikapu]

In suggesting that O shaves her beard , a lot of women do shave their beards albeit tiny ones , and they do also shave their legs , all of them , I was being pragmatic . O mentioned in a post gone by that she kept her hair long and untidy , I merely suggested that a good shave would lift her spirits up !!! Deniz being the gentleman that he is merely reminded me that O , being a direct descendant of Aphrodite was therefore a natural beauty and beard or no beard she still was an attractive lady !! I think that is what Denis implied .

Confusion reigns again!

Miltiades my friend, at least you know how I really feel about 'O'. I will leave it at that.

The other day I forgot to thank you for your gift. My wife said that she would flatten my head with it should I spend more time on the forum. She is most grateful for her new implement.

What did she receive from our good friend Miltiades, a rolling pin.!! :lol:

Such "deadly weapons" should not be sent to any "Cyprus Forum Widows".!! :lol:

Deniz, are you sure Miltiades is your friend.?

[denizaksulu]

In suggesting that O shaves her beard , a lot of women do shave their beards albeit tiny ones , and they do also shave their legs , all of them , I was being pragmatic . O mentioned in a post gone by that she kept her hair long and untidy , I merely suggested that a good shave would lift her spirits up !!! Deniz being the gentleman that he is merely reminded me that O , being a direct descendant of Aphrodite was therefore a natural beauty and beard or no beard she still was an attractive lady !! I think that is what Denis implied .

Confusion reigns again!

Miltiades my friend, at least you know how I really feel about 'O'. I will leave it at that.

The other day I forgot to thank you for your gift. My wife said that she would flatten my head with it should I spend more time on the forum. She is most grateful for her new implement.

What did she receive from our good friend Miltiades, a rolling pin.!! :lol:

Such "deadly weapons" should not be sent to any "Cyprus Forum Widows".!! :lol:

Deniz, are you sure Miltiades is your friend.?

All Cyprus Forumers are my friends Kikapu. Some are more , than others. Once we meet, the bond strengthens. I love it.

If you have not noticed yet I am making every effort to keep my head intact. Milti has definitely gifted a a fearsome implement. (Not a rolling pin)

[utu]

Well, Venezuela has - according to various news sources - officially recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as sovereign nations. Looks like 'territorial integrity' doctrines are crumbling. How much longer before other countries start looking at the north of Cyprus and reappraising their stance, particularly if the upcoming negotiations fail?

[Kikapu]

Well, Venezuela has - according to various news sources - officially recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as sovereign nations. Looks like 'territorial integrity' doctrines are crumbling. How much longer before other countries start looking at the north of Cyprus and reappraising their stance, particularly if the upcoming negotiations fail?

I can't believe how excited you get over nothing utu.!

Take a deep breath and calm down from your excitements and think for a moment, will you. There is absolutely no advantage for Turkey to have the "trnc" recognised by anyone, and I would not be surprised if Turkey actively discourages all other nation from recognizing the "trnc", because it will mean the end of the EU road for Turkey. Lifting of sanctions, Yes, but recognition, No. The only recognition Turkey wants for the north is with the RoC approval, such as the Annan Plan. Anything else will be nothing more than committing a political suicide for Turkey. Besides, if the north had world recognition, Turkey will lose it's influence in the north. Turkey is not about to allow the TC's to determine their own destiny on their own.

Turkey having a say so in Cyprus, gives them the feeling of being a "Super Power" equal to the USA, China, Russia and the EU as a block. When I was a kid, I also thought I had Super Powers like Superman while wearing the cape. Sometimes perception is everything in life, until gravity brought back reality to me every time I hit the ground from my perceived short flight.!

[Nikitas]

Utu,

Sometimes on has to be careful what they wish for, because they might just get it, and then the question would be "now I got it, what do I do with it".

Recognition of the north involves also total independence of the south. So the arguments used by Turkey recently over "joint sovereignty" of any oil which might be found in in the south cease. You cannot have international recognition of sovereignty of the north and still claim to be partners in the whole island. In fact, you may get recognition by those that want to separate the south from the north inorder to put a stop to Turkish claims on the south. Diplomacy is full of double edged swords. Are the TCs ready to deal with an international frontiere with the RoC and an even tighter embrace with Turkey?

[Kifeas]

Well, Venezuela has - according to various news sources - officially recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as sovereign nations. Looks like 'territorial integrity' doctrines are crumbling. How much longer before other countries start looking at the north of Cyprus and reappraising their stance, particularly if the upcoming negotiations fail?

Wishful thinking, Utu, ...wishful thinking!!!

Not only the west does not have now, after Ossetia, the slightest motive or incentive to do likewise it did not do for 35 years -and for which it blames Russia now, but not even Russia -which presumably acted in similar ways to Turkey, is willing to change its policy in relation to the "TRNC," and vowed already (Russia) that the two issues are unrelated! In fact, they are unrelated!

The easiest job in today's EU summit, in relation to the situation in Ossetia, lies with the RoC! We will seat back with "smiling" faces watching the rest of our European partners arguing against what Russia did, using the same set of arguments we used against what they in fact did a few months ago, in relation with Kosovo! We will let them argue their (our) arguments against Russia (themselves) for the recognition of Ossetia’s (Kosovo’s) independence, but when the time will come that they may think of deciding to take some strong measures against (our friend) Russia (which already covered us in relation to the “TRNC,”) we will stand up and remind them our Kosovo discussion a few months ago, and tell them that if they are to take any strong measures against (our friend) Russia, they will have to start first with the US, the UK and some other of our EU partners due to their Kosovo ideas and initiatives, otherwise our veto must be considered to be on the table. Of course, all these, always in a proper ‘diplomatic” language!

If there are two single issues closely related to each other -in fact they are exactly the same, these are the Kosovo and the Ossetia ones! Exactly the same!!!

[Kifeas]

Why the issue of Cyprus is totally unrelated to that of Ossetia (Kosovo!)

1.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo, the Greek Cypriots in 1974 -neither organised as a society, nor as an elected leadership- had in fact attacked the Turkish Cypriots. They may have done so after the Turkish invasion started, but this only in self defence and in order to disarm the enclaves due to the active support, participation and aid of elements of the Turkish Cypriot society on the side of Turkey. Crimes and atrocities (always unjustified and unacceptable) did occur against TCs, but these were in fact kept to the minimum that could have occurred under the circumstances, and only after the Turkish invading troops -with the active guidance and facilitation of TC forces -committed similar or even worst such crimes and atrocities against GCs, during the first phase of the invasion. Any one disputing the above truth, must also be ready to come up with facts and evidence to the opposite, and with places and dates!

2.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo, the northern part of Cyprus (the area that has been illegally occupied by Turkey) has neither ever been a separate region or state within Cyprus, be it autonomous or semi-autonomous; nor had it ever been an area in which the TCs have exclusively or as a majority existed as a separate people. In fact, unlike the cases of Ossetians or Kosovars which are the majorities in the corresponding regions, the vast majority of the population in occupied northern Cyprus, until 1974 -and for centuries over centuries, had always been the GCs by a 4:1 ratio, just like the rest of Cyprus!

3.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo -in which one may argue that the existing demographics have more or less taken shape by natural processes -at least during the cource of this century; in the case of Cyprus, the current or the after 1974 population facts were the product of an invasion by Turkey, a foreign country, which subsequently expelled the indigenous majority of people, the GCs (read ethnic cleansing,) and in their place it allowed the transfer of its own people from Turkey!

4.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo –in which those promoting their independence may argue that their stance is a product or a reaction to violent -or otherwise- actions taken by the Georgian or Serbian formal leaderships; in the case of Cyprus, what Turkey claims to had sparked their action to invade and to continue occupying northern Cyprus, was in fact an action take by a foreign government –Greece, against the will of the formal GC leadership and the will of the vast majority of the GCs themselves, and which they had actively opposed and confronted!

5.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo, the whatever violent conflict or clashes between GCs and TCs (during which the TCs admittedly suffered and lost proportionately more than the GCs did,) had long ended before 1974. They (sporadically) lasted for 4 years, and essentially ended in 1967 –seven years before the invasion, when the GC side ended all the blockades and embargoes against the TCs in the enclaves, and allowed their almost totally free movement around Cyprus –without anyone since then losing a single one of their hair from a GC hand. The leaderships of the two sides -since then (1968) and up until 1974, had been engaged in UN sponsored negotiations for the sole aim of getting the TC leadership to dissolve the enclaves and allow the re-integration of the TC community and society back into the RoC, as proper free citizens, with an extensive regional autonomy, social, cultural and religious freedom all over Cyprus, and their proportional active participation in a truly sovereign and independed (the issue of union with Greece had been formally abandoned) RoC (things the Kurdish citizens of Turkey are not even dreaming of ever having from the hand of the TC’s “motherland.”) All these, of course, under a workable this time, more balanced and fairer to all constitutional arrangement. All the above were characteristics of the then negotiated solution, which in fact the GC had accepted in principle, resulting in an almost near agreement between the two sides, as it is in fact been revealed in all the exchanged letters between the two negotiators, Denktash and Clerides!

The above 5 parameters constitute the essence of the complete disparity between the issue of Cyprus and those of Kosovo and Ossetia, and its mainly because of these factors that, despite all the 35 year long and restless Turkish propaganda and rhetoric, no one besides the Turks themselves had taken seriously the Turkish and TC claims!

The above 5 parameters are the undisputable by the international community realities, and anyone wishing to claim the opposite on even a single one of them, must come here with facts and evidence that can credibly alter the truthfulness in their essence!

[denizaksulu]

Why the issue of Cyprus is totally unrelated to that of Ossetia (Kosovo!)

1.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo, the Greek Cypriots in 1974 -neither organised as a society, nor as an elected leadership- had in fact attacked the Turkish Cypriots. They may have done so after the Turkish invasion started, but this only in self defence and in order to disarm the enclaves due to the active support, participation and aid of elements of the Turkish Cypriot society on the side of Turkey. Crimes and atrocities (always unjustified and unacceptable) did occur against TCs, but these were in fact kept to the minimum that could have occurred under the circumstances, and only after the Turkish invading troops -with the active guidance and facilitation of TC forces -committed similar or even worst such crimes and atrocities against GCs, during the first phase of the invasion. Any one disputing the above truth, must also be ready to come up with facts and evidence to the opposite, and with places and dates!2.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo, the northern part of Cyprus (the area that has been illegally occupied by Turkey) has neither ever been a separate region or state within Cyprus, be it autonomous or semi-autonomous; nor had it ever been an area in which the TCs have exclusively or as a majority existed as a separate people. In fact, unlike the cases of Ossetians or Kosovars which are the majorities in the corresponding regions, the vast majority of the population in occupied northern Cyprus, until 1974 -and for centuries over centuries, had always been the GCs by a 4:1 ratio, just like the rest of Cyprus!

3.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo -in which one may argue that the existing demographics have more or less taken shape by natural processes -at least during the cource of this century; in the case of Cyprus, the current or the after 1974 population facts were the product of an invasion by Turkey, a foreign country, which subsequently expelled the indigenous majority of people, the GCs (read ethnic cleansing,) and in their place it allowed the transfer of its own people from Turkey!

4.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo –in which those promoting their independence may argue that their stance is a product or a reaction to violent -or otherwise- actions taken by the Georgian or Serbian formal leaderships; in the case of Cyprus, what Turkey claims to had sparked their action to invade and to continue occupying northern Cyprus, was in fact an action take by a foreign government –Greece, against the will of the formal GC leadership and the will of the vast majority of the GCs themselves, and which they had actively opposed and confronted!

5.) Unlike the cases of Ossetia and Kosovo, the whatever violent conflict or clashes between GCs and TCs (during which the TCs admittedly suffered and lost proportionately more than the GCs did,) had long ended before 1974. They (sporadically) lasted for 4 years, and essentially ended in 1967 –seven years before the invasion, when the GC side ended all the blockades and embargoes against the TCs in the enclaves, and allowed their almost totally free movement around Cyprus –without anyone since then losing a single one of their hair from a GC hand. The leaderships of the two sides -since then (1968) and up until 1974, had been engaged in UN sponsored negotiations for the sole aim of getting the TC leadership to dissolve the enclaves and allow the re-integration of the TC community and society back into the RoC, as proper free citizens, with an extensive regional autonomy, social, cultural and religious freedom all over Cyprus, and their proportional active participation in a truly sovereign and independed (the issue of union with Greece had been formally abandoned) RoC (things the Kurdish citizens of Turkey are not even dreaming of ever having from the hand of the TC’s “motherland.”) All these, of course, under a workable this time, more balanced and fairer to all constitutional arrangement. All the above were characteristics of the then negotiated solution, which in fact the GC had accepted in principle, resulting in an almost near agreement between the two sides, as it is in fact been revealed in all the exchanged letters between the two negotiators, Denktash and Clerides!

The above 5 parameters constitute the essence of the complete disparity between the issue of Cyprus and those of Kosovo and Ossetia, and its mainly because of these factors that, despite all the 35 year long and restless Turkish propaganda and rhetoric, no one besides the Turks themselves had taken seriously the Turkish and TC claims!

The above 5 parameters are the undisputable by the international community realities, and anyone wishing to claim the opposite on even a single one of them, must come here with facts and evidence that can credibly alter the truthfulness in their essence!

Kifeas, are you limiting the TC experiences at the hands of various G/GC factions to the post 1974 period, thus ignoring events between the years 1963 1974?

As a very resourceful person you have all the data at hand of all that happened to the TCs prior to 1974, so dont beat about the bush. What you say about the post 'intervention' in 1974 may be true to an extent but the eventual aim of the events (Enosis) did trigger off the following unhappy events (to both sides).

[Kifeas]

Deniz, you probably have to read the entire post, including No. 5!