Cyprus-Forum.com

[alekcen]

And what is the difference between the Turkish invadors and the Italian or Persian invadors? You like some invadors better than others?

We are not going to make any war. The war was already made by Turkey in 1974 when they invaded Cyprus. Today we do not have peace, we have a cease fire in the war they started. War was their choice, not ours.

When the Italians invaded Greece they asked from the Greeks to surrender and let them occupy Greece. The Greeks said "NO" and they fought for their freedom. Was the war a choice of the Greeks because they fought the invadors?? If that is how your "logic" is then your IQ must be extremely low.

Why dont u get it??? U want to understand what it better suits u.
I said, what has the solution or BBF to do with the fight against Nazi, or against the persian, for god sake, is so simple!!!!! Can u read. What has all this to do with a solution?????????????????????

Those cases are completely different, u think that BBF, will bring slavery or fascism????? I think u should open a dictionary and read what BBF MEANS???

The women and children were murdered by the Turks. Some GCs responded to the Turkish agression, but aparently for you the Turks who started (as always) the murders and the crimes are innocent, and the only guilty ones are those GCs who retaliated!

Why do you support the murder of Cypriots alekcen?
Why do you support the ethnic cleansing of Cypriots from their homeland?
Why do you support the demand of the Turks to be gifted our lands?

I support none of this my friend, and u got me all wrong, cause my friend u never accepted the TC as a rightful community to live in Cyprus, nor u ever accepted the atrocities we ve done to them and telling cheap excuses that we done them cause we were attacked. Were we attacked in 1963?, were we attacked in 1967?????? Were we attacked by innocent children and women???

I accept the crimes done by turkey and i condemn them, but do u accept all the crimes done by GC. U are acting like a military coop never took place. Whats ur opinion about the coop???? was it a peace movement in ur opinion?????


Stop having these syndromes about 1570, ( just read history and see about the venetian occupation and all the others), and also that was history back then , a conqueror after another conqueror . By ur saying we should have all hated Germans, and a European union should have never been formed cause the Germans caused so much suffering.


I condem the occupation and the crimes done by turkey but i aslo condemn our crimes and our extreme nationalism which lead us here.


Ur talking about all this human rights, i agree with u, but think that u live in a world of interest, and also that TC has also rights, they had suffered a lot, and they have refugees too ( since 1963), they also have missing persons. Have u ever heard about all that?????? Or u just see one side only???
A solution will be compromising ,thats what am trying to say.

then how come and Turkey itself is a 3rd world country.

Have u been to Turkey? Please think before writing.

Also to Nikita, and to u Piratis, have u realised that each plan is worst than the next one. Havent u noticed what is going on????????? The next step if we continue your barren policy, it will be confederation and then division. How many years u want us to wait???????? Piratis dont u have a sense of reality???????? Wait until what?? For the division and the 500 000 settlers???????


Understanding reality means IQ!!!!!!!

[Piratis]

Why dont u get it??? U want to understand what it better suits u.
I said, what has the solution or BBF to do with the fight against Nazi, or against the persian, for god sake, is so simple!!!!! Can u read. What has all this to do with a solution?????????????????????

Those cases are completely different, u think that BBF, will bring slavery or fascism????? I think u should open a dictionary and read what BBF MEANS???

It has everything to do with one country (e.g. Turkey in 1974 until today, or Italy during WWII etc) invading another sovereign country and trying to impose on this other country its own terms by force and blackmail.

Also I would love if you give to me the dictionary with the term "BBF" in it. Where is it? I never said I reject "BBF" they way I understand it. I said I reject it the way the Turks understand it, which is nothing less than partition PLUS the control of the whole Cyprus by them.

I support none of this my friend, and u got me all wrong, cause my friend u never accepted the TC as a rightful community to live in Cyprus

Really? You are lying again. I support their right to live in Cyprus as equal Cypriot citizens with the full of their human and minority rights. What I do not accept is for them to Turkify and rule the lands where Greek Cypriots are the overwhelming majority, or for each on of them to more votes and power than each one of the rest of Cypriots.

nor u ever accepted the atrocities we ve done to them and telling cheap excuses that we done them cause we were attacked. Were we attacked in 1963?, were we attacked in 1967?????? Were we attacked by innocent children and women???

And again you are lying. Of course I accept that we committed some atrocities against them. What I am saying is that they started the atrocities and that they have committed a lot more of them. Therefore how can you demand that we should be punished while they should be rewarded on our loss when they are the ones who started the crimes and have committed a lot more of them???

I accept the crimes done by turkey and i condemn them, but do u accept all the crimes done by GC. U are acting like a military coop never took place. Whats ur opinion about the coop???? was it a peace movement in ur opinion?????

The military coup was not against the TCs. The coupists did not touch any TCs. The coup was against Makarios and the fights were between GCs, not against TCs (that is until they decided to invade and start killing us on july 20th 1974. After they attacked us, we responded). I condemn the coup and its actions 100%. But such coups happened in Turkey (and elsewhere) many times. Would it mean that whenever there was a coup in Turkey ,Greece should have invaded Turkey killing 1000s of Turks with the excuse that they want to protect the Greek minority there???

Stop having these syndromes about 1570, ( just read history and see about the venetian occupation and all the others), and also that was history back then , a conqueror after another conqueror . By ur saying we should have all hated Germans, and a European union should have never been formed cause the Germans caused so much suffering.

The Germans ended their occupation and stopped oppressing other nations. The Turks today continue to occupy our lands and violate our rights. See the difference?

I condem the occupation and the crimes done by turkey but i aslo condemn our crimes and our extreme nationalism which lead us here.

What lead as here is the Turkish expansionism against our island. Of course in the wars they started against us they also had victims, some of them innocent, but trying to blame our side while they were the ones who attacked us is somehting ridiculous.

Ur talking about all this human rights, i agree with u, but think that u live in a world of interest, and also that TC has also rights, they had suffered a lot, and they have refugees too ( since 1963), they also have missing persons. Have u ever heard about all that?????? Or u just see one side only???

Sure mate. And they wouldn't have any of those if they had not choose to start a war against us in 1958. What we had asked from the British and the Turks in 1950 was to allow the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically vote in a referendum and decide the destiny of our own island. Apparently for them it was OK if Cyprus destiny was decided by some British or Turkish foreign rulers, but not OK if it would be decided by the Cypriots themselves in a democratic way. So they attacked us, and in that conflict both sides had some losses.

A solution will be compromising ,thats what am trying to say.

No. What you are saying is that only our side should make compromises, even from our human and democratic rights, while the Turks gain on our loss.

Have u been to Turkey? Please think before writing.

No, and I wouldn't. Have you been there? How much money did you give them there?

Also to Nikita, and to u Piratis, have u realised that each plan is worst than the next one. Havent u noticed what is going on????????? The next step if we continue your barren policy, it will be confederation and then division. How many years u want us to wait???????? Piratis dont u have a sense of reality???????? Wait until what?? For the division and the 500 000 settlers???????


Understanding reality means IQ!!!!!!!

You didn't even have the IQ to understand what I and Nikitas are saying.

So lets make it even easier for you. If after some years we have the power to impose on the Turks whatever we want, would you "realists" support that we should violate their human rights and gain on their loss as much as we possibly can? Wouldn't this be the "realistic" thing to do according to your kind of "realism"?

[Bananiot]

Here is what Lazaros Mavros* wrote the other day in "Simerini".

The worst scenario is the political leadesrship which is leading, pushing and trapping the majority of the people towards the dilemma to be forced to accept dreaded partition rather than having to put up with their "partnership".

The above my friends shows the real face of rejection. These people, nurtured for centuries by sick, nationalist schools and the church, would rather see Cyprus partitioned than our two people share this beautiful island in peace and harmony.

All their calls for democracy and justice are just a cover screen to hide their sick nationalism which created our problem in the first place.

* A columnist in "Simerini", the newspaper that supported the coup in 1974 and an infamous daily talk show presenter, of "Sigma" radio, also owned by "Simerini" boss, Hadjicostas.

[DT.]

Here is what Lazaros Mavros* wrote the other day in "Simerini".

The worst scenario is the political leadesrship which is leading, pushing and trapping the majority of the people towards the dilemma to be forced to accept dreaded partition rather than having to put up with their "partnership".

The above my friends shows the real face of rejection. These people, nurtured for centuries by sick, nationalist schools and the church, would rather see Cyprus partitioned than our two people share this beautiful island in peace and harmony.

All their calls for democracy and justice are just a cover screen to hide their sick nationalism which created our problem in the first place.

* A columnist in "Simerini", the newspaper that supported the coup in 1974 and an infamous daily talk show presenter, of "Sigma" radio, also owned by "Simerini" boss, Hadjicostas.

You've lost all sense of measure bananiot. You're shooting out accusations everywhere and to everyone, calling people coupists, traitors and nationalists. You're condemning newspapers and newspaper owners....Basically you're doing everything you have ever accussed supporters of Tpap doing to you. I don't think its very wise to carry on this way, and it does not do you any favours on this forum at least. Your opinons are beginning to sound like rantings against anyone who dares disagree with you and your name calling has led a lot of people to stop taking your posts seriously.

[Nikitas]

Alek,

Everyone has personal hopes and nightmares. I hope we solve the problem, on the other hand my nightmare is a repeat of 1963 in the context of a BBF system, and with 1974 in our collective experience.

My alarm rings when I hear Talat on a TV interview say that EU acuis favor the GCs therefore a new system must be set up, outside the EU legal regime, to provide for TC demands. If a solution is based on this thinking then obviously it cannot be fair.

When I hear Erdogan claim victory after Burgenstok because Turkey did not return one inch of territory nor removed a single soldier from Cyprus, then it is reasonable to ask what the other side considers fair and how it will behave in the future.

As for each plan being presented being worse than the one before, then that should be a lesson to us about the plans of foreigners, not a threat which we must accept. You all forget the diplomatic and political counters which Cyprus has at its disposal. We are not as weak or as helpless as some like to project. No need for details now.

As for partition being the threat, I think we have had effective communal partition since 1963 and biregional partition since 1974. In 1983 we saw effective Enosis of the occupied area with Turkey. So what is worse than this?The flooding of the north with settlers? Is this a possibility we can exclude with a BBF solution? Are you sure? Can you prove it?

Read the Annan plan military arrangements for the interim period and see the insistence on crushing Turkish military superiority AFTER the solution is signed. What does that tell you? What contingency was foreseen which required that much firepower on the ground?

[Piratis]

The above my friends shows the real face of rejection. These people, nurtured for centuries by sick, nationalist schools and the church

Yes, how did the Cypriots dare to reject for centuries the Turkification of their homeland. How did they dare to continue with such "nationalist" ideas such as keeping their language, their religion and fighting for their freedom?

According to Bananiots (= Traitors) we should have capitulated to the Turks centuries ago.

Here is one more example of these centuries old "sick nationalists" Bananiot is talking about:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

According to Bananiot the revolution of the people to free themselves and their lands from Turkish invadors is a "sick nationalism"!! While the oppression of the Turks and their crimes against us are all fine!!

Bananiot, the sick nationalists are your Turkish friends who invade and want to steal and Turkify the lands that belong to us. Not the Cypriot people that fight for their freedom against the Turkish aggression and expansionism.

[alekcen]

and trying to impose on this other country its own terms by force and blackmail.

This what u think of negotiations? I f the case was actually like that we are we involved into negotiations for so many years?

reject it the way the Turks understand it, which is nothing less than partition PLUS the control of the whole Cyprus by them.

Where do u see those points? Where in the plans regarding the cyprus problem, u ve seen terms like that? Or maybe U think political equality means partition, or control of Turkey? Please can u explain me how u understand the term BBF?

Really? You are lying again. I support their right to live in Cyprus as equal Cypriot citizens with the full of their human and minority rights. What I do not accept is for them to Turkify and rule the lands where Greek Cypriots are the overwhelming majority, or for each on of them to more votes and power than each one of the rest of Cypriots.

Really, am i lying again? OK now u also now how i personally feel!!?!
Just for the records our political leaders accepted political equality, and also BBF was agreed by both sides since 1977. Read the terms in BBF and u will find ourself controversing ur own arguments, as u mentioned above that u accept BBF and now ur denying some fundamental aspects of it, like political equality!

Therefore how can you demand that we should be punished while they should be rewarded on our loss when they are the ones who started the crimes and have committed a lot more of them???

Never demanded for us to be punished. But to realise our responsibilities which is essential in reaching a mutual agreement, which will be compromising for both sidess. We started the whole issue with enosis and eoka.

The military coup was not against the TCs. The coupists did not touch any TCs. The coup was against Makarios and the fights were between GCs, not against TCs (that is until they decided to invade and start killing us on july 20th 1974. After they attacked us, we responded). I condemn the coup and its actions 100%. But such coups happened in Turkey (and elsewhere) many times. Would it mean that whenever there was a coup in Turkey ,Greece should have invaded Turkey killing 1000s of Turks with the excuse that they want to protect the Greek minority there???

The coop was the first step towards enosis. So ur saying now that the coop and enosis wouldnt harm the TC??? Plus remember that Turkey was a quarantetor in the 1960s treaty and as a quarantetor it used that right supposing to restore order which they did not, and lead to occupation.
Thats why Tukery invaded, as a quarentator, and that why none of the foreign powers stop it ( as they did in the past when two attemps for invasion from Turkey were hold by USSR(Soviet union) USA).

Sure mate. And they wouldn't have any of those if they had not choose to start a war against us in 1958. What we had asked from the British and the Turks in 1950 was to allow the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically vote in a referendum and decide the destiny of our own island. Apparently for them it was OK if Cyprus destiny was decided by some British or Turkish foreign rulers, but not OK if it would be decided by the Cypriots themselves in a democratic way. So they attacked us, and in that conflict both sides had some losses

The founding of EOKA coincided – by pure chance – with the challenge to the role of Great Britain as a regional superpower in the Middle East. In their attempts to maintain a hold on the area, the British sought to close their front in Cyprus. That is, factors beyond the political planning of the Greek Cypriots created circumstances favourable to a positive settlement on the Cyprus issue by diplomatic means.

During the talks between the then Governor of Cyprus, Sir John Harding, and Archbishop Makarios (1955-1956), the British offered the Cypriots a regime of self-administration, leaving even the prospect of Enosis (union with Greece) open in the future. The EOKA struggle, before it began in earnest, brought about the maximum possible result under the circumstances. Makarios, politically inexperienced, and blinded by the fanaticism of the era, was not in a position to see, let alone exploit, the circumstances. He rejected the British proposal and adopted the dogma of "all or nothing. By the previous post!!!

So after this, by our policy of all or nothing , the TC reacted and became a part of the whole issue. So Enosis for them was something unwanted, thus giving start for the future events to take place, as well with our extremist policy and nationalism.

So lets make it even easier for you. If after some years we have the power to impose on the Turks whatever we want, would you "realists" support that we should violate their human rights and gain on their loss as much as we possibly can? Wouldn't this be the "realistic" thing to do according to your kind of "realism"?

Thats beyond fantasy!!! How can u propose such a thing? This is has nothing to do with my way of realism. This has a lot to do with ur fantasy policy.

[alekcen]

Everyone has personal hopes and nightmares. I hope we solve the problem, on the other hand my nightmare is a repeat of 1963 in the context of a BBF system, and with 1974 in our collective experience.

I assure u that those worries are shared by every GC and TC.

My alarm rings when I hear Talat on a TV interview say that EU acuis favor the GCs therefore a new system must be set up, outside the EU legal regime, to provide for TC demands. If a solution is based on this thinking then obviously it cannot be fair

We both know that thats communications games being played by many politicians. Do u think that will actually happen? Communication games.

We just have to wait for the new negotiations , dont u agree? U think is wise for now to argue about terms and everything without the negotiations being started?

As for each plan being presented being worse than the one before, then that should be a lesson to us about the plans of foreigners, not a threat which we must accept. You all forget the diplomatic and political counters which Cyprus has at its disposal. We are not as weak or as helpless as some like to project. No need for details now

My opinion on this is said in the previous posts. Diplomatic and political counters, my friend if we use them wise to achieve a solution, not to sit back and wait for the balance of forces to change!!! Cause if we refuse to negotiate then all those will be useless. Lets not overestimate our power so much, cause LET ME REMIND YOU, of those who used to PROMISE A EUROPEAN SOLUTION before the annan plan, and also promise to the people that EU, will remove the army, force turkey to leave and many other empty promises from nationalist ( especially EUROKO, many members of DIKO, EDEK) . i dont see those people apologising to the public that they were wrong and that their policy fell into empty space!!!

The flooding of the north with settlers? Is this a possibility we can exclude with a BBF solution? Are you sure? Can you prove it?

Not wanting to be absolute, but i say is most unlikely to happen. Please read the terms about immigrants coming from Greece and Turkey , the 5% term. Also see how many settlers would have stayed. Simple.

Read the Annan plan military arrangements for the interim period and see the insistence on crushing Turkish military superiority AFTER the solution is signed. What does that tell you? What contingency was foreseen which required that much firepower on the ground

I will read that part, and respond to u asap.

[Piratis]

First of all alekcen when you copy & paste what some other person said you should quote him, not pretend that it is your own words. Although using the words of some other idiot wouldn't make you sound any smarter anyways.

This is what political equality means:

By political equality we refer to the extent to which citizens have an equal voice over governmental decisions. One of the bedrock principles in a democracy is the equal consideration of the preferences and interests of all citizens. This is expressed in such principles as one-person/one-vote, equality before the law, and equal rights of free speech. Equal consideration of the preferences and needs of all citizens is fostered by equal political activity among citizens

It is from the first result in Google when you search for Political Equality.
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/inequality/S ... /Verba.pdf

As you can see political equality means equality among citizens and it is expressed in such principles as one-person/one-vote.

The above is the political equality that I accept and promote.

What you promote is inequality since you want to segregate people and apply racist discriminations based on their ethnic background. This is what I do not accept.

Furthermore nowhere in any agreement we discussed about land distribution in a BBF. It goes without saying that we would accept such thing only if the territory that the TCs would rule would be very small, e.g. 5%, and that in return to allowing them to rule that 5% of Cyprus they would also make compromises from their rights. Also BBF should be a true federation where the central govermentis above the states, and this central goverment is elected democratically by the people as a whole, one person/one vote.

Freedom from the foreign invadors was the right of Cyprus as it was the right of every other Greek island and territory. Are you going to tell me that Rhodos (just one example) didn't have the right to be liberated and unite with the rest of Greece because there is turkish minority living there???

We didn't start anything that wasn't our right. We only asked for what was our right: Freedom from foreign invadors. Who started everything where the Turks who attacked us in the first place (we didn't go to Turkey to harm them, they are the ones who came to our island to harm us) and in 1958 they again attacked us and collaborated with the British colonialists so they could oppress our revolution and deny to us our rights.

Thats beyond fantasy!!! How can u propose such a thing? This is has nothing to do with my way of realism. This has a lot to do with ur fantasy policy.

So what is "your way of realism"? That the Greeks should always give in to the Turks? That is defeatism, not realism. If you are realist then you should come out and clearly say that when we have the power we should gain on the loss of the Turks as much as possible. Why not? After all human rights, democracy or any other principle doesn't matter for your "realism". All it matters is that the strong can impose its will on the weak, and the weak (if "realistic") should just accept it. Right?

[Magnus]

I just want to ask two simple questions and I hope someone can answer them without recourse to long-dead agreements and 'good faith' gestures:

Let us assume that everything goes well and our leaders agree on a BBF solution and even convince the people to vote for it. The two 'constituent states' are created and it's all implemented as expected. The 'northern constituent state' gains entry into the EU as part of the unified Cyprus.

So this is my first question:

What exactly is going to stop the 'northern constituent state' from breaking away to form their own 'country' six months down the line?

Or if not six months then whatever time frame you like, maybe after after the good people of the 'south constituent state' have helped to build up the economy in the north.

Given the fact that there are elements in the north that detest the 'Greeks' and want to join up with Turkey and will never stop trying to get their way, coupled with the fact that the 'TRNC' is full of people who are happy to support the illegal occupation of Cyprus as long as they get a free house and benefits from both sides, what exactly makes you think we should trust these people?

My second question is even simpler:

You are asking me to forget the fact that for centuries the Turks oppressed my people. You are asking me to forget the fact that the Turks invaded my land, raped and murdered my friends/family/neighbours and countrymen. You are asking me to forget that they alternate between mocking us and playing the victim. You are asking me to forgive and legitimise what they did and even apologise for 'their suffering' while forgetting the suffering of my own people.

Why exactly should I do that?