Cyprus-Forum.com

[Magnus]

Membership of the EU will not stop any state from breaking away. The moment the federation becomes a legal entity, then the north state becomes an EU member. In the event of a breakaway they will simply claim successor rights and retain EU membership for themselves while still being able to form their own 'connections' with Turkey.

To be honest I feel that it is pointless for us to constantly discuss the plans of the junta or Grivas and long-dead agreements. All we do is go round in circles on the issues we don't agree on. Surely it is more logical for us to focus on today's situation and plan for tomorrow. Let us not focus on what divides us as it only gives power to our enemies. We can argue about the past when everything else is settled.

[Piratis]

Nikitas , on the previous subject about a constituent breaking up from the federal state, let me remind you that we are in the EU, and i set the question if u have seen many EU countries break apart????? Cant u understand that EU provides political security, integrity and can ensure many things about a country.

Lets wait first for the negotiations to start, so we can debate with more meaning than all this random talking.

Also piratis, we agreed on previous negotiations and especially on 1977 with Bishop Makarios and Dektas they both agreed ABOUT BBF!!!!!!!
Its been agreed and all the following leaderships should continue their comitment on whats being agreed. Thats how politics works.

Also many here are talking about BBF bringing partition. Have they ever heard of the plans of junta ( greece) and grivas with cooperation with turkey of double Union??? That most of the politcs back then never wanted Cyprus as independent but they were willing to sacrifice half of Cyprus inorder to achieve double Union.

alekcen, didn't I already told you that I would accept a "BBF" solution as long as it is a BBF the I like? Here is a BBF that I like:

Two Cypriot states (not Turkish or Greek) one made up by the 12% of land and having a TC majority, and one made by the 88% of land and having a Greek Cypriot majority. Both states have equal powers within their territory. But their powers are limited to some secondary internal affairs. Then there is a central goverment which is elected by the Cypriot people as a whole, which is above the states and which handles all external and all important internal affairs.

Isn't what I describe above a BBF?

It is a strong Federation.
Made by two zones/states (Bi-zonal)
And each zone has a majority of one of the two communities (Bi-communal)
= BBF.

So I never said I don't accept a BBF. I said I do not accept a Turkish Version of BBF, like the Annan plan. And as you know very well the 76% of Greek Cypriots rejects that Turkish version of "BBF".

Actually the Turks shouldn't even call their version a "BBF" since it is a loose Confederation what they want, and not a federation.

Regarding Eu states braking apart, wait a few more years and you will see it happening in Belgium.

Belgium is in the center of Europe, it has the EU capital, it has no outsiders pushing for its partition (like we have Turkey), both France and Netherlands are part of EU and still they are about to brake up.

If we accept that the north part of our country, the part which belongs by 82% to us, is "Turkish", then forget about the north. No EU or anything else will give it back to us.

[Bananiot]

So Piratis, you want to cram the Turksih Cypriots in 12% of Cyprus where they can be the majority, meaning that really they will have less than 8% of the total area of Cyprus. There, they will deal with sewage and other relative issues while the central government will be elected by all Cypriots, presumable with your favourite democratic principle, one man one vote.

I think, if we have the means to achieve this solution which you call BBF, then we must have the ability to achieve something much better. I could even say you are a traitor for suggesting such a solution while we can get a lot better.

[humanist]

Piratis

For a federation kind of solution to result in a united Cyprus, the federal states should be Cypriot states (not Turkish or Greek) where in one state the majority will be TCs and in the other the majority GCs (and that should be the only difference between them) under a strong central goverment AND this central goverment should be elected democratically by the Cypriot people as a whole (possibly with some guarantees for proportional representation of TCs in it).

If what we will have is two separate states, one Greek and one Turkish, and without a democratically elected central Cypriot goverment with authority over them, then the result is partition. Labeling it as "unification" can only fool the fools who can not see the essence and just accept the labels that they are spoon fed.

Piratis I agree with you and anything else is a huge mistake for the country as a whole and all its people. How great is it to be follwing the US elections and seeing an African American President being relished by most Americans. Why not afford the same opportunity to TC's.

So Piratis, you want to cram the Turksih Cypriots in 12% of Cyprus where they can be the majority, meaning that really they will have less than 8% of the total area of Cyprus. There, they will deal with sewage and other relative issues while the central government will be elected by all Cypriots, presumable with your favourite democratic principle, one man one vote.

I think, if we have the means to achieve this solution which you call BBF, then we must have the ability to achieve something much better. I could even say you are a traitor for suggesting such a solution while we can get a lot better.

Bananiot I don't think Piratis or many other GC's on this forum are suggesting that TC's are squashed anywhere infact most of us are saying they have as much right to CY as anyone else no more no less.

You are beginning to sound like VP and Zan a whole lot of anti GC postings without offering any solutions to the issues. And TC's need to get use to the fact that just as they are a now a minority in the occupied areas of Cyprus they are a minority in the Cypriot community as the maronites and jews who by the way share equality with the GC's in evry aspect of life domains including political.

[Piratis]

So Piratis, you want to cram the Turksih Cypriots in 12% of Cyprus where they can be the majority, meaning that really they will have less than 8% of the total area of Cyprus. There, they will deal with sewage and other relative issues while the central government will be elected by all Cypriots, presumable with your favourite democratic principle, one man one vote.

Bananiot, what I described in my earlier post was a version of BBF that I like. Put the above version of BBF in a referendum and you will see that the great majority of GCs will vote "yes" for it. Therefore I and the GCs do not reject BBF, as long as it a BBF with the right content.

Still, I would be willing to negotiate with TCs and make even more compromises, e.g. accept that the TCs can administer the 16% of land. But in order to do that the TCs should be compromising as well.

Now lets examine your claim about "cramming the TCs in 12% of Cyprus". First of all TCs would be able to live in the south state as well, they will not be forced to live only in that 12%. They can live anywhere they want. But lets pretend this factor was not there and do the math.

Greek Cypriots along with the Armenians, Maronites and Latins are about 700.000. Turkish Cypriots are 120.000 MAX.

if 120.000 TC live in the 12% of land this means 10.000 TCs for every 1% of land, or 10.000 TCs in each 92.5sq/kilometers.

Now, according to the Annan plan that you accepted, the GCs would administer less than 70% of the land. Even if it was 70% of land, that would mean 1% of land for every 10.000 GCs, or 10.000 GCs in each 92.5sq/kilometers. Why didn't you complain that GCs would be crammed with the Annan plan??

The way the TCs would like to "cram" GCs in the 70% of land, why shouldn't we also like to "cram" them in the 12%? In the 12% of land they wouldn't be any more crammed than what we would be in the 70%.

I think, if we have the means to achieve this solution which you call BBF, then we must have the ability to achieve something much better. I could even say you are a traitor for suggesting such a solution while we can get a lot better.

And this showed once again your mentality: We should accept whatever the Turks want!!

Maybe we are not able to get a good solution for us, but this doesn't mean we should accept for them to get a a good solution for themselves on our loss. They can't force on us what they want either.

[pantheman]

Piratis, eisai mungas and you should stand for presidency.

Bananiot is a waste of time, he has it in for us for whatever bitter reason and you cannot change him.

The funny thing is, he thinks that if he keeps spouting the same rubbish we will eventually cave in, but fortunate we are not as stupid as he thinks.

I would vote for your version of the BBF.

Why not make a poll and see what we get.

Good on you Piratis, I am glad you are with us, you can say it so much better. Bravo sou file mou.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis, eisai mungas and you should stand for presidency.

Bananiot is a waste of time, he has it in for us for whatever bitter reason and you cannot change him.

The funny thing is, he thinks that if he keeps spouting the same rubbish we will eventually cave in, but fortunate we are not as stupid as he thinks.

I would vote for your version of the BBF.

Why not make a poll and see what we get.

Good on you Piratis, I am glad you are with us, you can say it so much better. Bravo sou file mou.

Luckily you are only 1 vote and bananiot has a lot more supporters than Piratis on both sides of the divide which is what is needed to find a solution. TCs would even accept a unitary state with people at the head like Bananiot but with Piratis and people like him a BBf with political equality of both states with plenty of safeguards is vital for our survival.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, the extreme views of Bananiot are shared by about 1% of the people who vote for EDI. Nothing more than that. Bananiot is trying to hijack the votes that Christofias received in the second round and he forgets that I, Kifeas and many other people that he calls "rejections" also voted for Christofias in the the second round because he promised that he will not accept anything similar to the Annan plan.

Also VP, what makes Bananiot a Bananiot, is that he actually agrees to give to you the partition you want. That is why you like him. If he wanted a unitary state you wouldn't like him.

And please stop the crap about "safeguards for your survival". What you want is to steal our lands.
If all you wanted is "safeguards for your survival" then we could agree for a partition with you keeping about 10% of land (you would be less "crammed" than we are now, so don't bring that excuse), build a 20 meter wall around it, and have as many Turkish troops as you want in it. Would you agree?

[Oracle]

I do not not know any other other Cypriots that think like Bananiot which is why I was at first so shocked by his views that I couldn't call him anything other than a traitor.

Piratis speaks for the majority as I know them. But personally I would worry that even Piratis is overly generous with his compromises, and if the Turks had any idea of fairness, they should be more than happy with his proposals.

Personally I don't mind if the Turks don't take up Piratis as I would like to see an eventual proper solution, negotiated by the EU where all the Turks are removed and the TCs are no more than any other RoC citizens, with no special favours for assigned TC villages/zones or any out of the ordinary "power" gifts.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint, the extreme views of Bananiot are shared by about 1% of the people who vote for EDI. Nothing more than that. Bananiot is trying to hijack the votes that Christofias received in the second round and he forgets that I, Kifeas and many other people that he calls "rejections" also voted for Christofias in the the second round because he promised that he will not accept anything similar to the Annan plan.

Also VP, what makes Bananiot a Bananiot, is that he actually agrees to give to you the partition you want. That is why you like him. If he wanted a unitary state you wouldn't like him.

And please stop the crap about "safeguards for your survival". What you want is to steal our lands.
If all you wanted is "safeguards for your survival" then we could agree for a partition with you keeping about 10% of land (you would be less "crammed" than we are now, so don't bring that excuse), build a 20 meter wall around it, and have as many Turkish troops as you want in it. Would you agree?

If you continue with your current mindset just like the last 34 years you will get jack shit, Bananiot has displayed the flexibility and level headedness that not only allows me to trust he has the best interests of both communities at heart but also allows me to place my future in his hands in a unitary state thats the difference between you two you on the other hand are a threat and you will never get us to agree to what you demand, I am sure you will not like what you hear or read over the coming weeks during negotiaitons both sides have to swallow their pride if they wish to move forward, but obviously you have no pride and only want your way or the high way well we will take the highway every time.