Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Alek asked:

"So what do u prefer? Or are u afraid that the 450 and 950 Greeks will cause problems? And now ur feeling sucere with 40 000 Turkish soldiers???"

Ideally I would prefer NO soldiers. Failing that then how about 450 TC soldiers in the north, no GC soldeirs in the south, or perhaps a small mixed EU contingent which excludes British, Greeks, or Cypriots, to monitor the situation and raise the alarm if either side gets naughty ideas?

If there are mainland contingents they will do what they have always done- formulate plans to have just in case, and in these plans they will draw the locals, with the usual ploys of patriotism and the "struggle". I know the movie, seen it before, do not want to see it again.

[alekcen]

Ideally my friend i would prefer no soldier too, but lets not forget the world we live in. So being realistic and seeing what can be achieved and gained from the negotiations. Also the 450 soldiers will be in the north not in south, and the ELDIK force will be in the south.

Nationalist from both side should be prevented to cause problems my friend, we dont have to be afraid only about TC extremist but also by GC also. So is reasonable for the to be afraid for the past to repeat itself, and for us also.
So what do we do? Never find a solution, or negotiate, and try to get EU involved and the UN to provide quarenties? Those are things that we can accomplish. ( let me remind u that we wanted quarenties from the UN and when the council of UN was held, those who rejected giving quarenties were the Russians, who also were visitied few days before voting by our foreign minister) Lets not forget this things my friend. What do u say about all this????

[Nikitas]

Since we are talking about a bizonal system, where each side will have its own police force in its area, that should be enough to deal with home grown possibly violent nationalists.

The foreign soldiers are supposed to be there as a symbolic presence, proof of the guaranteed independence of the republic. But there is one detail- they guarantee the independence of the WHOLE, so the Turkish army will be able to interevene in the south and vice versa. In that I see a recipe for repeat of 1963 and do not want it.

What is wrong with a mixed contingent of our partners in the EU, those that have no stake in Cyprus, like France, Spain, Luxembourg etc, from doing the same job as the two mainlands? Same job but with no strings attached.

[miltiades]

I think the time will come , in my lifetime , Im 62 , that the EU will dictate not only the number of foreign troops on its soil but also whether she would be prepared to accept non EU troops on its soil.

[alekcen]

The foreign soldiers are supposed to be there as a symbolic presence, proof of the guaranteed independence of the republic. But there is one detail- they guarantee the independence of the WHOLE, so the Turkish army will be able to intervene in the south and vice versa. In that I see a recipe for repeat of 1963 and do not want it.

Yes the soldiers will be there just as a symbolic force. I think is a bit time-consuming to argue now about the coming negotiations before seeing anything. Cause who knows maybe both sides agree Turkey to have guaranties only at the North constituent state and not in the south. Also maybe they achieve no guaranties , or maybe only the EU. We just have to wait.

P.S am trying to be realistic and say thing as they are, am not neither trying to be a turkish lawyer or an extreme nationalist. Am just a Cypriot.
Thats just for the record.

[Piratis]

alekcen, first of all stop lying. There was never a plan for the extermination of TCs. The Akritas plan, which was not an official policy of Cyprus anyways, says nothing about any "extermination". So stop lying.

So now lets see who has the most blame.

Who has the most blame is the one who

a) Starts the crimes
b) Commits the most crimes
c) Commits his crimes for the longest time

So, lets first ask question (1), who started it. The answer is the Turks.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted. Word of the massacre spread, and a few days later Mustafa took Kyrenia without having to fire a shot. Famagusta, however, resisted and put up a heroic defense that lasted from September 1570 until August 1571.

The Cypriot people never ventured out of their own island to harm anybody. It is the Turks who started the war between Turks and Cypriots and since then we have been trying to defend ourselves and our island from their aggression.

The Turks are also the ones who started the inter-communal conflict in 1958, collaborating with the British in order to once again oppress the revolution of the Cypriot people for freedom and force on us the 1960 agreements:



The Turks are also the ones who started the war of 1974 with their invasion. In 1974 before the Turkish invasion no TC was harmed. It is the Turks again who started the war killing 1000s of innocent people.

Conclusion: The Turks are the ones who started all conflicts.

Now we go to (b), who committed the most crimes.

As you can see in the quote I gave above, the Turks killed 20.000 people in Nicosia alone. Many more thousands were killed in Famagusta at the same period. But their crimes didn't stop there. They continued to oppress and kill Cypriots during their whole rule over Cyprus. One example:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Then during the inter-communal conflict, which as we have seen in the video above the Turks started against us, the Turks killed several 100s of Greek Cypriots.

During this conflict they also lost a few 100s of people and they suffered as well for about a decade.

Then in 1974 Turks invade Cyprus again, killing 1000s and ehtnically cleansing 100s of thousands. In this war about 200 TCs die.

So who caused the most casualties to another? The Turks did. They killed 10s of thousands of Cypriots. The TCs on the other hand lost about 800-1000 people in total (and all in conflicts which they started!) This is a massive difference.

Now lets see and who oppressed the other for the longest time.

The Turks occupied Cyprus and treated Cypriots as their slaves for 307 years. The suffering of GCs was not just the massacres against us, but the way we were treated as well. Our testimony was not even accepted in courts!:

Various Cypriot movements arose after the 1830s, aimed at gaining greater selfgovernment , but, because the imperial treasury took most of the island's wealth and because local officials were often corrupt, reform efforts failed. Cypriots had little recourse to the courts because Christian testimony was rarely accepted.

Then in 1958 the TCs started the inter-communal conflict against us. In this conflict which lasted from 1958 until 1968 (10 years) both communites had some losses and both communities suffered.

Then in 1974 turkey invaded again, and their occupation continues for the last 34 years

So the Cypriots suffered from the Turks during a total of 351 years.

On the other hand the TCs suffered for just that 1 decade!

So lets do an overview of who has the most blame:

The Turks started all the conlicts. If they did not then there wouldn't be any Cypriot-Turkish wars to begin with. This wars existed because Turks kept invading our island. We never invaded them.

In terms of casulties, the Turks killed many 10s of thousands of Cyprus, while they lost about 800-1000 people only.

In terms of who caused the most suffering to another for the longest time, the Turks have oppressed our rights and occupied our lands, somehting that continue doing today for a total of 351 years and counting. On the other hand the suffering of TCs was 1 decade.

So stop trying to put the blame on the Cypriots looking for excuses to harm Cypriots even more.

Although it is clear that we are the ones who have suffered the most from the Turkish aggression and expansionism against our island, unlike them, we do not want their punishment or the violation of their rights.

What we want is for our island to finally be allowed to be free and democratic, one person one vote, where everybody will have the 100% of his human and democratic rights and without the Turks imposing on Cyprus their will by force.

[alekcen]

Hey piratis, am not lying what i said is true, and u can find the evidence if u want to. Just search a bit.

Also i ask u again , who do u consider a murderer, someone who killed 7 people or someone who killed 12 ??? I think that they are both murderers my friend and lets not give excuses for those war crimes. Just make ur research and i will be glad to discuss with u about all this.

The Turks are also the ones who started the inter-communal conflict in 1958, collaborating with the British in order to once again oppress the revolution of the Cypriot people for freedom and force on us the 1960 agreements:

Think a bit with logic, we were trying to bring enosis, how did u expect the TC to accept this. Would u be pleased if u lived somewhere that the TC attempted enosis with Turkey???? Also murders of TC took place also durring eoka a fighting.

So let me understand well, u also desagree with 1960 treaty?


And whats this talking about 1570??? Every nation at a point of its history has conquered or was conquered.

Plus let me remind u that the Cypriot population was supresed by the Venetians before the ottoman came to cyprus. The Venetians treated the Cypriot like animals, depriving their freedom and even their faith, thus ( search on this) even the Cyprus Orthodox church send an emassidor to the ottoman sultan to claim Cyprus from the venetians. The remarkable thing is that the Cypriots didnt resist the ottoman invasion in 1570, those who resisted were the venetians. Also after the ottomans came the Orthodox church gained all its privellages that never had under Venetian occupation. All in all am saying that all conquers can be equally cruel.
So u want us to start hating, Turks, Italians, Franks, Romans, Persians, Assyrians, Egyptians??????

[Nikitas]

Militiades said:

"but also whether she would be prepared to accept non EU troops on its soil." For that to happen there must be a sense of honor, which is not now present in the EU, thanks to the succesful attempts of some nations who love to undermine the european idea.

Compare it to America where even the Evzones that are allowed to attend the celebrations for March 25th in New York can do so on the condition that they do not bear arms, not even ceremonial ones. See the difference?

[Piratis]

Hey piratis, am not lying what i said is true, and u can find the evidence if u want to. Just search a bit.

You are lying, and better admit it. Here is the Akritas plan. Show me where it talks about "extermination of TCs"

Here is the plan: http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/akritas_plan.htm

On the contrary is clearly states that: "The Greek efforts are directed towards removing unreasonable and unfair provisions of administration and not to oppress the Turkish Cypriots;"

So yuo are lying, and better admit it.

The plan of extermination and annihilation is that taksim (partition) plan of Turks. Partition requires the annihilation of Greek Cypriots from the north part of their country, which is a plan that the Turks put into action in 1974.

Think a bit with logic, we were trying to bring enosis, how did u expect the TC to accept this. Would u be pleased if u lived somewhere that the TC attempted enosis with Turkey????

Do you know any part of the world that has 80% Turks and is not part of Turkey? Why is Constantinouple or Asia Minor called "Turkey"? Did the Turks asked the Greeks or any other minority if they agreed to be part of a country called "Turkey"?

Also murders of TC took place also durring eoka a fighting.

Keep closing your eyes. I even posted to you a video which shows clearly that the TCs are the ones who attacked us, but you keep ignoring it.

So let me understand well, u also desagree with 1960 treaty?

Do you disagree that the this treaty was a result of blackmailing the Cypriot people and forcing them to accept it? The Turks collaborated with the British in order to defeat the revolution of the Cypriots by opening a second front against us in 1958. In return the British gave to the Turks many unfair gains on our loss in the treaty that they wrote and forced on us.

Do you know any other independent country, which instead of choosing its constidution in a democratic way, some foreigners and some minority pawns of them, force whatever they want? Can such thing be called "independence"?

And whats this talking about 1570??? Every nation at a point of its history has conquered or was conquered.

Not just 1570, it lasted until 1878, just 80 years before Turks attacked again in 1958. Basically since the day the Turks set their foot on our island they have been killing and oppressing us. They only stoped for 80 years! Basically every single Cypriot generation has suffered from the Turks.

Plus let me remind u that the Cypriot population was supresed by the Venetians before the ottoman came to cyprus. The Venetians treated the Cypriot like animals, depriving their freedom and even their faith, thus ( search on this) even the Cyprus Orthodox church send an emassidor to the ottoman sultan to claim Cyprus from the venetians. The remarkable thing is that the Cypriots didnt resist the ottoman invasion in 1570, those who resisted were the venetians. Also after the ottomans came the Orthodox church gained all its privellages that never had under Venetian occupation. All in all am saying that all conquers can be equally cruel.

You have swallowed the whole Turkish propaganda. Venetians were bad like every foreign ruler is. But the Turks have been the worst by far, and no Cypriot wanted them to come (of course some idiots can always exists, just like today).

So u want us to start hating, Turks, Italians, Franks, Romans, Persians, Assyrians, Egyptians??????

Do any of those occupy any of our lands today? The problem with the Turks is not what the did in the past. The problem is that they never stoped their crimes against us since. They continue with the same kind of crimes today.

We are forgiving people and we hate nobody for what happened in the past. Who we hate are those that continue to commit crimes against us now, as if Cyprus is still part of their empire!

Before you said about how hated the Venetians were while they were ruling us. Do you see any hate against the Latin minority in Cyprus today? The Latin minority respects the rest of the Cypriots, respects our human and democratic rights, and in return they receive respect from us.

We do not hate anybody that respects us. Who we hate are those who want to take our lands and violate our human and democratic rights.

[Nikitas]

Is there any concrete evidence of the supposed Venetian oppression?

I have been to Venice many times and the biggest canal in the city is called Canal of the Greeks. On the canal is the Greek Orthodox church of Saint Demetrius. The library of Venice is the place where most of the Greek manuscripts of the Ottoman period are stored and the city was the place of where Greek men of letters found refuge. It was during Venetian times that artists like El Greco and Vincenzo Cornaro created their best works.

So where is this evidence of oppression of the Greeks and Cypriots under Venice? Where are the great works of Greek and Cypriot artists during Ottoman times when we were freed from the Venetians?

People lived in a feudal system in Cyprus as in the rest of Europe and in Italy itself. But when the enlightenment came and feudalism was undone we were under Ottoman rule, ie feudal subjects administered by the Church as tax collector. At least the Venetians collected their taxes themselves.