Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Can Turkey take the ROC to court

which court? The one in the pseudo state that convicted those people for picking up flowers from their garden? Sure, Turkey can definitely win in that court!

[magikthrill]

Can Turkey take the ROC to court

which court? The one in the pseudo state that convicted those people for picking up flowers from their garden? Sure, Turkey can definitely win in that court!

I believe brother was talking about an international court or European court.

Regardless though, I feel like it's been explained that there is no basis for the RoC to be taken to court so there is no need for debate (or provocative comments) anymore.

EDIT ADDITION:
But great topic brother!

[cannedmoose]

Blimey Thrill, hope you're getting excited, you could become a millennium member tonite!

[magikthrill]

Blimey Thrill, hope you're getting excited, you could become a millennium member tonite!

Screw that!
I finished finals yesterday and heading to vegas tonight/tomorrow morning. Then NY on saturday and then back home sweet home next month!!!

ill be posting though till i head back to the motherland though

[cannedmoose]

Congrats mate... don't blow your wad in Vegas though

[gabaston]

Alex

It may be inferred differently as per different viewpoints, however it does seems that there is little doubt that it was blatently violated by both GC and Greece, prior to Turkish intervention.

[Alexandros Lordos]

.... In fact, the Turkish Generals and the Greek Generals had made a verbal agreement, that Turkey would invade after the 15th July coup and take over 20% of Cyprus, which would become part of Turkey, while the other 80% would become part of Greece. Like all verbal agreements, it was "violated" by Turkey, which took "a little bit more" than agreed ...

This is interesting Alex,

How and where did you hear about such an agreement among generals. I have not heard such a thing so far.

Are you refering to some sort of "game theory" setting startegy making or was there a really an agreement. and if there is please point out some resources where I can learn more.

It's been discussed a lot in history booksthat detail the period, also it was reflected in various official documents that have been released.

I can't think of a specific reference at the moment, maybe another other member of the forum will know where you can get that sort of information.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alex

It may be inferred differently as per different viewpoints, however it does seems that there is little doubt that it was blatently violated by both GC and Greece, prior to Turkish intervention.

Well, OK, if you want to go the "multiple interpretation" way, how about we also say that those who arranged the coup from Greece were themselves an illegal government, and that as soon as that illegal government was ousted the true constitutional government of Greece - which had signed the treaty in the first place - went back to fully respecting its terms. Or, how about we also say that the pretext of a violation of Cyprus' constitutional order ended with the fall of Sampson, and therefore there was no further need for Turkey's intervention?

We could use such and various other futile arguments in order to defend our "respective positions" that "the other side is to blame", from now until page 15 of this thread, but is this really a good use of our time?

For me, it is crystal clear: Everybody violated the Treaty of Guarantee, and, just like every other aspect of the 1960 constitutional order, it remains alive only in the letter, only "legally", but not in the practice of everyday life.

The question now is, how can we update the 1960 agreements, in the light of historical experience, in order to properly re-unite Cyprus?

[Viewpoint]

Alexandros, good morning, the ideal of a united Cyprus remains a very distant and unreachable utopian dream, we have yet to address one of the biggest issues which in my opinion we could overcome many other seemingly unconquarable problems that could easily resolved, thats TRUST, do we trust each other enough to unite??? this morning we opened our papers to the array of anti GCs articles, patience is running out concerning GCs antics over property and the explosion is about to happen, the tide has started to change and the goodwill built up between over the past 2 years between the people will evaborate, no one will want to cross into the south for fear of being arrested as 2/3 of our population are directly or indirectly linked to GC property so in fact for us the border has now been closed by the south. These developements will get worse as the north takes steps to combat our people being taken to court in the south, the first 4 arrest warants have been issued and 3 are for TCs and 1 English. Where do we go from here, the TRUST issue has taken a very bad knock as the general Tcs evaluates this as GCs underhand tactics to try and force its sovereignty into the north. God help us all, it will only take one hot to plant a bomb and we take a jump backwards 30 years. maybe opening the borders was not such a good idea after all.

[Kifeas]

.... In fact, the Turkish Generals and the Greek Generals had made a verbal agreement, that Turkey would invade after the 15th July coup and take over 20% of Cyprus, which would become part of Turkey, while the other 80% would become part of Greece. Like all verbal agreements, it was "violated" by Turkey, which took "a little bit more" than agreed ...

Alexandros,
Apart of some isolated rumors for a possible collaboration between the Greek Junta Generals and the Turkish Generals, such an agreement has never been documented anywhere.

The truth of the matter regarding the coup and the Turkish invasion should be searched in the C.I.A.’s and Henry Kissinger’s practices of those days.

Ever since Makarios “sabotaged” the Atchenson Plan in summer of 1964, he has become a thorn in the eye of American politics and the foreign office bureaucrats. He had to be eliminated. They begun a campaign of defame and undermining against him. With Kissinger coming in office, this campaign intensified dramatically. Makarios was portrayed as a pro-communist, pro-soviet (Fidel Castro of the Mediterranean, the red priest, etc.) Makarios had always enjoyed a strong popular support in Cyprus and therefore it was almost impossible to be overthrown through political means. Americans had always feared that an independed Cyprus with it’s internal problems visa vie the two communities been settled down, and consequently the roles of Greece and Turkey (both N.A.T.O. members and consequently puppets of the American interests) gradually diminishing (this was the dream of Makarios,) would have been a very “dangerous” development for the interests of the Americans.

The solution that Kissinger envisioned was that of Partition, with one piece to be united with Turkey and another with Greece. Makarios (and Akel to some extent) were probably the only obstacles. With the Greek Junta having come in power with aid and support of the CIA, they found it most suitable to undermine Makarios internally. They were constantly (CIA) winding the generals to be careful of Makarios as he plans to drive Cyprus towards the Soviet arm and that the only possible way out is to overthrow him and declare Enosis with Greece, something that will secure Cyprus’ permanent control by N.A.T.O. As for the Turks reaction, the Americans were assuring the Generals that Turkey will not react and that they will take care of this issue. Of course the Americans had a similar contact with the Turkish government and the corresponding generals in Turkey. They knew that Turkey would not be satisfied with such a development (overthrow of Makarios and Union with Greece) and therefore they would react. Consequently, they were giving promises to the Turks that once Makarios is overthrown by Junta and Eoka B, they should be ready to send troops in Cyprus and grasp their piece of the cake and that the Americans will facilitate politically such a move.

The same fairy tail (Union with Greece) was told to the local opponents of Makarios in Cyprus (E.O.K.A. B and her likes.) Of course the Generals, although they were fascists, they were not completely stupid. Papadopoullos (not the same Papadopoullos of Cyprus, but the Junta leader,) although a puppet of the Americans, did not trust them entirely. He had chosen not to overthrow Makarios with a military coup, as he was afraid this would give Turkey an excuse to invade, but instead to renter him impossible to govern and force him to resign. He did not succeed to this mission and therefore the Americans in 1973, decided to put him on the side and help Ioannides to grasp the power of the Greek Junta. Ioannides hated Makarios to death. Ioannides had been in Cyprus in the 1960's as a regular army officer, seconded by the Greek Army to serve in the Cypriot National Guard. During his service period in Cyprus he once visited Makarios in his office with Sampson and presented to him a “plan” to exterminate the TCs from Cyprus in one night. Makarios had nearly thrown both of them out of his office and calling them even stupid. Ioannides was indeed a very stupid person. He believed whatever the Americans were telling him (he was even once a C.I.A. agent himself.) He decided to go along with the coup, having received final assurances that the Americans would have kept Turkey outside the game. His initial plans were to make the coup a few weeks later. However, upon Makarios letter to him, asking him to remove all the Greek officers from Cyprus because they were causing internal problems (presumably planning the coup,) Ioannides decided to take action sooner than later, fearing that Makarios would have arrested the Greek officers before completing their mission.

The notorious role of Kissinger has been revealed during the first days after the coup and before the 20th of July. The British government, which presumably was not informed or not bought into his plans, tried to discourage the Turks from invading and the ministry of defense had even prepared a plan to help the pro-government GC resistance against the coupists and bring Makarios back to power. Guess who stopped the British? And why?
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editing due to spelling errors