Cyprus-Forum.com

[alekcen]

the invasion wasnt prevent by anyone. not even Greece intervene. The occupation of Cyprus is illegal and am against it, lets not confuse things. What am trying to say is that we should be realistic, and see what can we achieve, having in mind that we dont have 100% right cause we are responsible for many things.

By the way take a look at Georgia nowadays, and the war with Russia. Thats a similar cause with what happened in Cyprus.

Also paliometoxo, am really glad that from all the guys here u talk with logic, and we can have a mature discussion althoug we might disagree that doesnt prevent us from discussing with reason.

[repulsewarrior]

alekcen, welcome.

...please read my Manifesto (and the other threads)

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19022

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15874

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16772

[Magnus]

Lets just say, for arguments sake, what if the TCs turned round to Turkey and said "Thanks guys for saving us, but we can look after ourselves now. Will you please kindly leave?".
What will Turkey do???

Turkey would say 'no, we're not going anywhere. Know your role and shut your mouth'. The TCs would then realise what everyone else knows: they are just brainwashed pawns of the mainland Turks, apart from those that are aware of their situation but are happy with the gains they make from it.

[Oracle]

And the TCs showed their true nationalist feelings for Turkey ... so they should just join them in Turkey, since they have no nationalist feelings for Cyprus....

We have nothing to gain from TCs ... they have a lot to gain from us. If we take them back, they should be grateful, after what they have done to us.

Isn't that just the attitude that will ensure you will never live side by side as EQUALS? Really, Oracle!! Who in their right mind would want you a "neighbour" with that attitude? Thank God you are not the TRUE voice of people!!!

Why would I, a law-abiding citizen, want someone who condones racist ethnic cleansing, and is delighted to steal other peoples' property, living in my neighbourhood?

I have made no pretences that the "TC"s that left to join the Turkish occupation force in 1974 are traitors to the RoC and I am under no illusions that since they are acting illegally according to the UN, then I view them as common criminals ... you too!

The only long-term solution I see, is for those that still harbour desires for Turkey, to go and live there.

[alekcen]

Just want to set the following question, do you people realise what will be the cost of division, or if the negotiations failed? Have you ever wonder how things will be if the current situation continues?

Maybe, no GC property will be left in the North, also the turkish settlers population will increase dramatically and we wont be able to send anyone away. Also if we are to blame if the negotiations failed ( with brains like the most of the guys in here) the international opinion will change against us, the EU will lift the embargo, TRNC will be upgraded and become more independent, all this will cause many problems in our foreign policy, also our tourism ( which are economy is based) will decrease dramatically. Plus if Turkey joins EU , then the south will open to thousands of immigrants coming from mainland Turkey, so the north will belong to Turkey, and the south will eventually have the same fate.

And all of us guys , we will be somewhere abroad, and we gonna still be fighting, and saying that all turks out of Cyprus, while our whole country will be Turkish, cause we refused to live with the TC, cause we refused to compromise and build a re-united Cyprus for our children to live in peace and when a Cypriot mentality would have been established they would have fought for something better.


Is it time to end the so called policy of "OLA I TIPOTA" ( everything or nothing) , cause history has shown that we get nothing. Thats how the Greeks lost Smirni ( the had it, but the wanted to reach Ankira) also same happened with east Thrace. Also we should remember Alexandria in Egypt, were Greeks there acted like they own the place ( even though the were there for centuries, the refused to compromise with the locals) and they end up loosing everything.

So guys tell me ur opinion, should we wait for " OLA I TIPOTA" , like instabull and Ismirn, should we wait for another 30 years??? Until we are left with nothing. Is the same with makarios and eoka b , they never compromised with the 1960 treaty and RoC and they wanted enosis even though they were independent, so all this lead them to sacrifice half of our country.



So guys, who must of u live abroad without facing the problem, tell me what u want? Decide for the Cypriots who live here?

Am waiting ur answer guys!!

Also to save all of u from the trouble, am stupid , traitor, asshole, idiot, poulimenos, am everything , SO PLEASE if u have something to say, argue and discuss like civilised people, or should i say like Greeks. And if ur Greeks, respect me and my opinion and discuss, at least once do as ur ancient ancestors did.


I bet is hard for u to do so.

[GreekForumer]

Is it time to end the so called policy of "OLA I TIPOTA" ( everything or nothing) , cause history has shown that we get nothing. Thats how the Greeks lost Smirni ( the had it, but the wanted to reach Ankira) also same happened with east Thrace.

"OLA I TIPOTA" ?? What ?? Did the Kemalist Nationalists accept Smyrna as Greek or Christian territory in their National Pact (Misak-ı Millî) ?

Here is some Q&A for you........

What does the ideology of "Turkey for the Turks*" actually mean for non-Turks if it was put into practice ? ANSWER : Genocide or ethnic cleansing or forced assimilation or expulsion or racist laws or undemocratic laws or limited/non-existent democratic representation or a combination of these.

Did the ideology of "Turkey for the Turks" originate before Greek troops landed in Smyrna in 1919 ? ANSWER : Yes

Did the Kemalist Nationalists subscribe to the "Turkey for the Turks" ideology ? ANSWER : Yes



1- Misak-ı Milli borders & 2- Current Turkish borders

In the National Pact, how much Anatolian territory did the Nationalist Turks decide to leave aside for the Ottoman Greeks and Armenians and others who DID NOT want to be ruled by Nationalist Turks ? ANSWER : None !

With the National Pact Borders shown above, what ideology would be imposed on the non-Turks within these borders ? ANSWER : "Turkey for the Turks" ideology. (See the answer to the first question to see what that implies!)

When was the National Pact made public ? ANSWER : 12th February 1920

When did Greek troops leave the Smyrna district and advance, ultimately, towards Ankara ? ANSWER : 22nd June 1920, 4 months later.

Did the Kemalist Nationalists apply the "Turkey for the Turks" ideology on the non-Turks** after the final defeat of the Greek forces in August 1922 ? ANSWER : Yes.



*Turkey = "land of the Turks"
**Kurdish allies included

[Cem]

In the first place it is highly highly improbable that the TC community or its leadership would ask Turkey to leave. As many people have already pointed out the dependency - economic in particular - that has developed over the decades is a massive disincentive to issuing such a call. This is especially the case in the absence of a worked-out viable alternative (itself likely to be part of a negotiated comprehensive settlement).

Secondly, issuing such a call depends for its credibility on it arising from a more or less solid social base. What is that social base ? Sure, an inividual here or an 'ultra' party there can make this call and it will be immediately discounted as 'pissing in the wind'. Which section of TC society (supported by which section of GC society) is this call going to come from ? Again people have already noted on this Forum how TCs are in a numerical minority even in northern Cyprus and are on a demographic downward slope both in absolute and relative terms.

Third, of course is the form or content in which such a call would be framed. For example, is this a straight withdrawal or is it timetabled ? Is it without pre-conditions or is it subject to fulfilment of other requirements ? And so on.

Fourth, even if TCs made such a call the question of under what auspices such an action would take place is raised. That is to say, is this under UN, EU, OSCE, bi-ltaeral, etc auspices and how does it relate to the wider Cyprus negotiations.


Whilst I'm all for TC society making such calls it is nevertheless little more than wishful thinking if we do not consider the concrete reality that TCs have very little power in the situation.

Very good post CopperLine, can't help not agreeing with it.
I for one, had stressed the "economic dependency" issue many times, but for some "deaf" ears, it went unheeded.

[Oracle]

In the first place it is highly highly improbable that the TC community or its leadership would ask Turkey to leave. As many people have already pointed out the dependency - economic in particular - that has developed over the decades is a massive disincentive to issuing such a call. This is especially the case in the absence of a worked-out viable alternative (itself likely to be part of a negotiated comprehensive settlement).

Secondly, issuing such a call depends for its credibility on it arising from a more or less solid social base. What is that social base ? Sure, an inividual here or an 'ultra' party there can make this call and it will be immediately discounted as 'pissing in the wind'. Which section of TC society (supported by which section of GC society) is this call going to come from ? Again people have already noted on this Forum how TCs are in a numerical minority even in northern Cyprus and are on a demographic downward slope both in absolute and relative terms.

Third, of course is the form or content in which such a call would be framed. For example, is this a straight withdrawal or is it timetabled ? Is it without pre-conditions or is it subject to fulfilment of other requirements ? And so on.

Fourth, even if TCs made such a call the question of under what auspices such an action would take place is raised. That is to say, is this under UN, EU, OSCE, bi-ltaeral, etc auspices and how does it relate to the wider Cyprus negotiations.


Whilst I'm all for TC society making such calls it is nevertheless little more than wishful thinking if we do not consider the concrete reality that TCs have very little power in the situation.

Very good post CopperLine, can't help not agreeing with it.
I for one, had stressed the "economic dependency" issue many times, but for some "deaf" ears, it went unheeded.

I was the first to remark that was a good post. Others then posted similarly.

However, you are the only one who continued on from that to make a loaded comment.
It has made me wonder if we are interpreting this "anthology" of CopperLine's in the same way.

Cem, would you, in a few sentences, post your personal take-home message from Copperline's post ....

We can compare it with what I understood

[alekcen]

Greek forum, so you are saying that the advancing of the Greek forces until Ankira was justified? Am not denying most of the things you have said, but you must realise the point am trying to say. The campain to get to Ankira was something completely wrong. The could have stayed around the Smirni area as it was allowed by the Sevron treaty. Although some agreements were reached with Italy, France and Britain, the decisions were not agreed by the Greek government, who believed that they still retained the strategic advantage and could negotiate from a stronger point.



ANYWAY, that was just a point of what i was trying to point out. What do you have to say about all the rest?

[Cem]

In the first place it is highly highly improbable that the TC community or its leadership would ask Turkey to leave. As many people have already pointed out the dependency - economic in particular - that has developed over the decades is a massive disincentive to issuing such a call. This is especially the case in the absence of a worked-out viable alternative (itself likely to be part of a negotiated comprehensive settlement).

Secondly, issuing such a call depends for its credibility on it arising from a more or less solid social base. What is that social base ? Sure, an inividual here or an 'ultra' party there can make this call and it will be immediately discounted as 'pissing in the wind'. Which section of TC society (supported by which section of GC society) is this call going to come from ? Again people have already noted on this Forum how TCs are in a numerical minority even in northern Cyprus and are on a demographic downward slope both in absolute and relative terms.

Third, of course is the form or content in which such a call would be framed. For example, is this a straight withdrawal or is it timetabled ? Is it without pre-conditions or is it subject to fulfilment of other requirements ? And so on.

Fourth, even if TCs made such a call the question of under what auspices such an action would take place is raised. That is to say, is this under UN, EU, OSCE, bi-ltaeral, etc auspices and how does it relate to the wider Cyprus negotiations.


Whilst I'm all for TC society making such calls it is nevertheless little more than wishful thinking if we do not consider the concrete reality that TCs have very little power in the situation.

Very good post CopperLine, can't help not agreeing with it.
I for one, had stressed the "economic dependency" issue many times, but for some "deaf" ears, it went unheeded.

I was the first to remark that was a good post. Others then posted similarly.

However, you are the only one who continued on from that to make a loaded comment.
It has made me wonder if we are interpreting this "anthology" of CopperLine's in the same way.

Cem, would you, in a few sentences, post your personal take-home message from Copperline's post ....

We can compare it with what I understood

Again I got caught in the spider web of Stella...
The one, who is always... one step ahead of turks..
Use search facility to find my posts here and you will see (am afraid I am bit lazy to do that for you)...
Still, to answer your "diggings" :
For the first paragraph of CL, I am one of the people he mentioned stressing the economic dependency-that is why Tcs can not simply ask Turkey to withdraw fro Cy.
For his second paragraph concerning having a solid social base, I have not touched upon the issue earlier, but I agree with him for simply those segments of Tc society daring to ask this are still "tiny" compared to majority which constitute the electorate base of the two biggest parties ,namely, UBP and CTP. On the other hand, I have exclusively stressed the weight and importance of settlers votes in TRNC's political agenda implying that such a motion would be very unlikely to pass without their approval. I had also pointed out that the real talks behind the scenes are going on not between Xtofias and Talat but between E.U and Turkey (even the USA).
As for the calendar of a withdrawal scheme, I had made my point in agreeing with "Kofi" Kikapu plan in the event of a solution (4000 troops per year).
For the 4th, I think it should be under the auspices of both U.N, E.U and the U.S.A .
While many times I stressed the inability of TC people in taking such draconian measures by themselves such as asking Turkey to withdraw, you, along with some other people, on the other hand, have always accused the TCs of willful complicity with Turkey.
As if everything depended exclusively on their will.
The TCs have been made dependent on Turkey on purpose.
Read my answer to Nikita's post pls.
BTW, by having an answer for every post, it looks like you want to dominate this forum not only in the CyProb area but also in the chat area as well (having seen your posts there too).
Then, I asked myself why this dear Stella have not condescended to reply to my inquiry about the aquarium stores in Cyprus posted in that area.
Since, you always want to be "one step ahead of turks"..