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Here you go Bananiot...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Viewpoint » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:05 pm

Piratis wrote:I will vote "yes" to it, as long as the "political equality" it is as understood by the UN, and not the 50% that you demand, and as long as the state that you control is no more than 9% of the territory of Cyprus and 9% of the coast line.


Dont hold your breath cause it aint gonna happen, you need to rethink a solution that would be acceptable to us as wellç
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Postby Piratis » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:17 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Piratis wrote:I will vote "yes" to it, as long as the "political equality" it is as understood by the UN, and not the 50% that you demand, and as long as the state that you control is no more than 9% of the territory of Cyprus and 9% of the coast line.


Dont hold your breath cause it aint gonna happen, you need to rethink a solution that would be acceptable to us as wellç


So a BBF with political equality is not acceptable to you now? I thought it was acceptable a moment ago. What happened VP?
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:38 am

Piratis wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Piratis wrote:I will vote "yes" to it, as long as the "political equality" it is as understood by the UN, and not the 50% that you demand, and as long as the state that you control is no more than 9% of the territory of Cyprus and 9% of the coast line.


Dont hold your breath cause it aint gonna happen, you need to rethink a solution that would be acceptable to us as wellç


So a BBF with political equality is not acceptable to you now? I thought it was acceptable a moment ago. What happened VP?


Its the 9% part together with no right to say no in times of danger aint gonna work.
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Postby growuptcs » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:31 am

Can we lay down a red carpet for you VP for when you make your entrance to the negotiating table. We'll make sure no one is on the road for you that day. Attention everyone, the world has to stop for VP when his feelings are on the line.
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:03 am

Humanist, I propose a unitary Cyprus with a return to the 1959 constitution with all refugees back in their homes. I am sure this would make you very happy but I know people who want much more.

However, we do not stand a dog's chance of achieving this by diplomatic means and our army experts say that a military operation is out of uestion.

In the 34 years after the invasion many things have changed on the ground. The occupied parts are unrecognisable and in a few more years there will be nothing left for the refugees to return to. In fact, those that are still alive may not want to return because they have made their lives elsewhere. Certainly their children and their grand children will be very reluctant. This is what the passage of time does to you.

Thus we need a solution at the earliest. Had we understood better what time does, we would have accepted several plans that were put on the table in the early 80's, such as the Anglo American Canadian plan that was miles better than the Annan plan. At the time there was no trnc.

Turkey was not very interested in solution for many years and on top, we made sure we never put Turkey under any sort of pressure. In fact Turkey always claimed that the Cyprus issue was solved in 1974. The tide began to turn when Turkey set her eyes on the EU. Erdogan understood clearly that solving the Cyprus issue would make Turkey's accession effort stand a better chance. Hence, for the first time, we were astonished to hear a Turkish Prime Minister claim that the Cyprus issue was not solved and that it stood in the way of Turkey's accession to the European Union.

For the first time since 1974 we could hold something on Turkey and this something became a very big tool when we managed to convince the EU that we could become full members without first solving the Cyprus issue. We have Simitis, Vasiliou and Klerides to thank for this. The EU were convinced that Turkey were the bad guys who avoided solution and that it could not jeopardise the entry of Cyprus by holding Cyprus hostage. That was a momentous win for wee Cyprus and it made the giant of Turkey bent on its knees.

At that crucial moment, when the Turkish Cypriots took to the streets in the thousands calling for the removal of Denktash and what he represented (some holding RoC flags!) in order to find a solution (they were desperate, so was Turkey) we were unlucky (thanks to Christofias) to have a President who was a sworn enemy to any form of solution bar, total capitulation of the Turkish Cypriots.

Had we have a visionary president at the time, I have no doubt that the Cyprus issue would not exist now. Papadopoulos destroyed our hopes (Greek and Turkish Cypriots) and the international community who are not stupid franks, as we like to portray them, realised that this time it was our side that did not want solution. I am not referring to the Annan Plan, which Papadopoulos negotiated in such a way as to make it unpalatable to the Greek Cypriots. I am referring to 5 whole years of impasse when Papadopoulos would not even meet Talat for coffee. We had every right to reject the proposed plan but we never said what we wanted instead. This literally deguildified Turkey who moved two steps ahead of us and until now we are suffering the consequences.

BBF is our only hope now but we need to act fast for the window of opportunity will close soon. You can understand humanist, I am sure, that a solution in 1975 would have been less damaging than a solution in 1980 and so on. The clock is ticking against us and the longer we delay it the worse the solution will be.

No doubt, the rejectionists understand this quite well. Yet they always say no and any person with have a cent of brain can understand that they have a different agenda.

They do not want to share anything with the Turkish Cypriots and for them the second best solution is the only option. Their stalling game can only mean one thing. Partition!
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Postby Nikitas » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:18 am

Bananiot, you say it yourself, Turkey regarded the results of the invasion as a solution and would not accept any other, so why blame our side for not accepting the plans of the 80s?

The fact that Turkey did not change until it was PRESSURED shows the lack of goodwill on the Turkish side. Keeping Famagusta, which could have housed a third of all refugees, closed for 35 years is a huge indicator of the mindset you are dealing with but you choose to blame it all on Papadopoulos instead.

The Turkish PR machine let it be understood that Erdogan would be arriving at Burgenstok with a goodwill package that would surprise us all.Instead he claimed he won withouth yielding an inch of territory or removing a single soldier from Cyprus. How do you interpret that statement and its significance for future developments? What positive move on our side can change that mindset that sees the removal of soldiers and the return of territory to its OWNERS as a mistake?
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:21 am

What do you suggest Nikitas?

P.S. Erdogan had to appease the generals who were getting ready to overthrow him. Let us look at other people's difficulties too.
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Postby Nikitas » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:30 am

Bizonality equals partition. Let us be clear about that and admit to ourselves the true nature of the solution we are discussing. The only positive aspect that can be put on this partition is the application of the EU legal regime on the resulting system, so that there is freedom of movement, establishment and residence, at least in theory, in the whole of the resulting federation.

With the above in mind, and considering the possibility of cessation of recognised states from the federation, TERRITORY becomes the first and most important consideration. The rest is window dressing.

The possibility of cessation is not necessarily something which will be done by the TC side. Either side can be led to the point when they had enough of a partnership!
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:39 am

What do you suggest?
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Postby Oracle » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:41 am

Now we have a hierarchy of puppets to whom we have to look to for a solution.

Talat the Puppet of Erdogan; and now Erdogan the Puppet of the Generals (confirmed by Bananiot).

So why don't we cut out all the middlemen and negotiate straight with the Turkish Generals? Why play their charades of supposedly having a Democratic government like Erdogan's in power, when we know it's just a face to satisfy the Occidentals who fear negotiating with military dictatorships.
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