Cyprus-Forum.com

[magikthrill]

you don't be silly! What problems Turkey exported to her neighbouring countries, for instance to Greece? It is Hellenic lobby that works in full cooperation with Armenian and Kurdish lobbies to export its problems into Turkey.

Im guessing the issue of air space violations hasnt reached you yet insan? And what is this crap about Armenian and Kurdish lobbies???

Who is feeding you this BS insan cause I'd like to congratulate them on the great job theyve done.

[insan]

And Turkey please think very very carefully...There are other new economies emerging e.g didn't China turn her nose up at Britains last remaining Car manufacturer Rover.

Gabaston, as long as Turkey is a NATO ally and willing to stay in western alliance she'll do everything she can to enter EU. And as I said previously, US and the EU's important actors will also do anything they are able to Europeanize, ie; globalize Turkey. The only ones that are against globalization is the leftists. the only ones that are against Turkey's membership is the Christian Democrats and historical enemies of Turkey because they have a different agenda in this globalization process. Revival of Byzantium, Consantinople, holy lands etc.

[insan]

you don't be silly! What problems Turkey exported to her neighbouring countries, for instance to Greece? It is Hellenic lobby that works in full cooperation with Armenian and Kurdish lobbies to export its problems into Turkey.

Im guessing the issue of air space violations hasnt reached you yet insan? And what is this crap about Armenian and Kurdish lobbies???

Who is feeding you this BS insan cause I'd like to congratulate them on the great job theyve done.

Go visit lobbyforcyprus.org and see the disgusting crap, Hellenic lobby is making in cooperation with Armenian and Kurdish lobby. Air space violations. Which air space? The so-called air space?

[magikthrill]

Go visit lobbyforcyprus.org and see the disgusting crap, Hellenic lobby is making in cooperation with Armenian and Kurdish lobby. Air space violations. Which air space? The so-called air space?

im talking to you about problems between Greece and Turkey and youre telling me lobbyforCyprus.

and yes the "so called" air space:

[11] Turkish warplanes violate Greek national air space
Athens, 5/5/2005 (ANA)
Sixty Turkish warplanes made 31 infringements of air traffic regulations in the Athens Flight Information Region (FIR) on Wednesday, which developed into 16 violations of national air space in the northern, central and southern Aegean.
According to National Defence General Staff sources, it is the biggest number of Turkish warplanes to enter the Aegean in the past two years without submitting flight plans.

In all cases, the Turkish aircraft were recognised and intercepted by Greek air force jets, while in three cases the interception process developed into mock dogfights. Eight of the Turkish warplanes were armed, while four were naval cooperation aircraft.

Turkey is due to begin an exercise on Thursday, southeast of the island of Rhodes.

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/ana/2005/ ... 5.ana.html

[insan]

FIR

The Present Istanbul/Athens FIR (Flight Information Region) has been included in the regional plans by the International Civilian Aviation organization as a result of the meetings held in accordance with the proper procedures in 1952. After Greece began to interpret the Greek FIR to be her national boundaries, Turkey initiated attempts to ICAO in order to change FIR in the years of 1966, 1968, 1971 and 1974 consecutively, but no positive reply has been received in this regard.


GREEK CLAIMS

The existing FIR was established according to international rules. These may neither be negotiated nor discussed in any way. According to the regulations of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), flight data and schedules for the civil aircraft altering region are given to the air traffic control ( ATC ) elements of the region they have entered. The aim of this is to provide safety in the flight data region by carrying out air traffic, search and rescue services. Military aircraft may not be left out of this regulation because these services are also valid for them.


RESPONSE TO THE GREEK CLAIMS

FIR should not be treated as Turkish-Greek boundary and should not limit the equal and free use of airspace over the international waters of the Aegean. International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is a civilian organization, and in the Chicago Convention it was clearly stated that only the civilian identified aircraft will give flight information, and the regulations applicable to military aircraft should be established by bilateral agreements. Since there is not a mutual agreement between Turkey and Greece on the subject, Turkey considers that it should be obligatory for the state aircraft to be subject to the same implementations, because the authority to set up such rules solely belongs to that nation itself.

Additionally, prior to both NATO and national exercises, the exercise NOTAM is declared for the exercise areas in accordance with the relevant procedures and the aircraft participating in the exercise fly according to the visual flight rules and generally in the positive control of the surface radar. For a military flight to be carried out under the positive radar control as the operational air traffic in the international air space, setting up an obligation for giving flight plan information or reporting is a violation of both the Article 3 of the Chicago Convention and the relevant provisions of International Law and precedents which provide flight freedom over the high seas. The insistence on having flight plan information for the flights to be conducted in the Aegean International air space, implies that the technical responsibility given to Greece in line with her FIR responsibilities, is also used as an air defense means,
This approach can also be seen in the identification interdiction of Greece with the justification that she has not received the flight plan information from the aircraft participating in the exercises. Should the interdiction for identification be conducted by Greece for the purpose of security, Turkey also has the right to follow the same course of action.

[gabaston]

Insan

i wait to be convinced and corrected by Turkeys Eu membership.

I dont know about globalizations etc, but i do know that bread, cheese milk, etc will soar in price.

The high strets will no longer sell cheap fakes. In other words one pair of jeans will cost just under one weeks wages (i think).
I dont think the Turkish public will take kindly to this.

Kemal Mustafa advocated the Europeanisation of Turkey, and im in full agreement with him, but that doesnt mean you have to join Eu.

They have a comfortable lifestyle in Istanbul right now, compared with past generations, and have attained this through their own labours. All that may all change very rapidly if Turkey gets duped.

I speak of Experience of Britains entry. The fishing industry of britain for example has been told it cant fish near Iceland, there were even wars over it. Yet Britain has to pay Portugese fishermen to .....get this..to NOT fish. There are many stupid things in the Eu which you only learn once you are in. Britains has no ....i mean no manufacture left where once she manufactured evrything and exported it to the world.

If you want Eu good luck, but im not convinced.
Good luck..hope it works out well for Turkey

[magikthrill]

and heres another interpretation of your article

C. The Athens Flight Information Region (FIR Athens)

On December 7, 1944, the Civil Aviation Convention was signed in Chicago. It foresaw the creation of an International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). Each member-state would be assigned an area of responsibility for the control of all air-traffic.
The Athens Flight Information Region ("FIR") was agreed to at the Regional Air-Traffic Conferences of 1950, 1952, and 1958.
Turkey participated in all these conferences and had fully accepted the boundaries of Greece's FIR. The Athens FIR covers Greek national air-space in its entirety, as well as certain areas of international air-space. In accordance with the ICAO regulations and with international practice, all aircraft, civil and military alike, must submit proper notification before crossing the FIR.

Nevertheless, in August 1974, Turkey arbitrarily issued NOTAM 714 (Notice to Air-men) by which she unilaterally extended her area of responsibility up to the middle of the Aegean, within the Athens FIR. Greece then had to declare that part of the Aegean a dangerous area (NOTAM 1157). The ICAO addressed an appeal to both countries to put an end to the situation, without success at the time.

Finally, in 1980, Ankara withdrew NOTAM 714, when she realized that it was prejudicial to her interests and especially to her tourist industry.

Nevertheless, Turkey continues to violate the Athens FIR with her military aircraft under the pretext that the Chicago Convention does not concern military aircraft.

The Greek position is that the regulations and decisions of the ICAO must be fully respected. Furthermore, reasons of safety of international air-traffic demand that Turkish warplanes submit flight plans when entering the Athens FIR.

Once again, it is perhaps no coincidence that the difficulties created by Turkey concerning the Flight Information Region began in 1974, after the Cyprus invasion, when Turkey turned her full attention to the Aegean. The Turkish claims are unfounded and serve only to further Turkish designs of control over the Aegean.

----

Last paragraph is interesting. Never thought the Turkey's violations in both Cyprus AND the Aegean were correlated. Interesting...

[insan]

Insan

i wait to be convinced and corrected by Turkeys Eu membership.

Gabaston;

Turkey's EU membership is just one more step of globalization of the planet earth. It all started after the ww2. Turkey became a member of NATO alliance in 1950. Do you remember the famous Truman doctrine? Do you remember the famous Truman and Marshall aids? These aids were provided by US to build up a globalized world, first starting with Europe.

I dont know about globalizations etc, but i do know that bread, cheese milk, etc will soar in price.

Turkey has rich resources when compared to other EU countries and even most of the other countries of the world. The same results might not appear in Turkey when she becomes a member of EU. I'm not against the countries which have rich resources to share it with the people of other countries of the world. However in this capitalist world, the ones who grab these resources are neither the ordinary native people of the country nor the ordinary people of other countries. The ones who get benefits of globalization are the big capital owners and the ruling elites of the country besides the international capital owners and international ruling elites.

It seems to me that either the big capital owners and ruling elites globalize the world and its resources for their own greedy interests or there are many exploiters among these big capital owners and ruling elites that exploits the philosophy of globalization. I haven't sorted this out yet.

The high strets will no longer sell cheap fakes. In other words one pair of jeans will cost just under one weeks wages (i think).
I dont think the Turkish public will take kindly to this.

The most powerful is the masses. The masses have the ability to change everything if it wants. If the masses don't react "injusticeness"; know that they are happy with it. You know the reciprocal partisantship. "Give a little of what I need and do whatever you like" mentality; i.e to be the slave of "little" mundane interests.

Kemal Mustafa advocated the Europeanisation of Turkey, and im in full agreement with him, but that doesnt mean you have to join Eu.

What is EU? Who created EU for what purposes? Who are the two major tribes of EU?

I gave the answers of first two questiones above. The two major tribes of EU are modernist contemporary Europeans of various EU members and the conservative, religious bigots of various EU countries; Christian Democrats, aka European People's Party. There are also some small tribes in EU. Leftists, Greens, ethnic interest groups that when they join their forces with one of the major tribes for anything; they can change the course of the events.

Now use your imagination and personify all those actors in this game to see the different approaches, alliances, strifes, beliefs, rights, wrongs, goodwill, ill-intentions, exploitations etc..

This is the whole story.

They have a comfortable lifestyle in Istanbul right now, compared with past generations, and have attained this through their own labours. All that may all change very rapidly if Turkey gets duped.

It's true that everything is far better in not only Istanbul but everywhere in Turkey when compared with the past generations of RoT. One of the basic principle of globalization is to present the resources of a country for the benefits of all humanity, under control of ruling elites. In a globalizing world sharing the resources of a country with the people of other countries is inevitable as long as it is not exploited by ruling elites in self-interests of exploiters. If the native masses of a globalized country know how to protect its vital interests; no power on earth can harm the vital interests of the native people of a globalized country. Capitalist call this as human race.

We can't expect masses to be aware of all the goings on with full details. In order to protect the vital interests of the masses that are open to exploitation by the ruling elites; we need the armies of intellectuals to inform, guide and stimulate the masses to take guard, use their democratic rights, go passive resitence against the exploitation attempts of
ruling elites.

I speak of Experience of Britains entry. The fishing industry of britain for example has been told it cant fish near Iceland, there were even wars over it. Yet Britain has to pay Portugese fishermen to .....get this..to NOT fish. There are many stupid things in the Eu which you only learn once you are in. Britains has no ....i mean no manufacture left where once she manufactured evrything and exported it to the world.

Shortly to name it, interest clashes over the food resources and transformation of the local industries. Although I have no detailed knowledge about why manufacturing industry died in UK; most probably it has been transformed into something that substituted it.

If you want Eu good luck, but im not convinced.
Good luck..hope it works out well for Turkey

EU is not all about how we know it. In its philosophy, in its essential; it is a tool of US and its allies to globalize the planet earth and took all of its resources under control of world government for the benefit of all humanity. But as I said I have doubts about if it is the benefit of all humanity or the benefit of the ruling elite of the world.

[Agios Amvrosios]

Britains has no ....i mean no manufacture left where once she manufactured evrything and exported it to the world.

That has nothing to do with the EU.It is because British workers are unable to live on the amount of money paid to Chinese workers.

In China people are working for 70 euros a fortnight and surviving.

That is not possible in the EU.

Would you work for a handful of rice a week?

in 2005 most manufacturing industries are in third world countries.

Service industries a more developed in countries with any economic strength.

[gabaston]

Agios and Insan

Good luck to you and Eu

I wish you ever succes.

One day i will write you the average prices, and average pay in Britain.

For now ill just say that the average credit card (Visa card) debt is over
seven thousand pounds sterling, and this with relative low interest rates.
The average flat appartment in London is about two hundred thousand pounds, and young people have no chance of buying. Cheapest bus ride 1.2 sterling every journey. Takaway kebab 4 pounds - sit down meal for two (kebab) with wine thirty five pounds sterling

These are just some of the increases you can expect.

Anyway again, i wish you well, and i say good luck to you and Eu.