Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Well, if the SG is a puppet of the Americans and their allies, and if all these people are our enemies, what chance do we have? We might as well commit suicide. Unless you predict that the American reign is coming to an end pretty soon and a new world order is established. Knowing our mentality, the leaders of this new order will again be our enemies. If we exist to have enemies!

[Kifeas]

Good question Kifeas. It is therefore up to Papadopoulos to ask for those changes that can be accepted by both communities at best and changes that are sound to a third party. If he starts making wild demands then of course the negotiations will never start and he will be finger pointed by those concerned as the party responsible (again). Remember also that the changes cannot alter the philosophy of the Plan.

Hence, I can understand his reluctance. If he does not go far enough in his demands, to satisfy the bigots, then he will lose his power base. He is in trouble! Unless of course he sides with the bigots and does not care twopence if the talks start at all.

Well, Here we have a case in which Papadopoullos is asked (expected) to send in advance a list of his required changes. This is what Annan is asking. Naturally, under this scenario, someone is obliged to list all or as many changes as possible, that he believes are unworkable, unfair, etc.
How will Papadopoullos know before hand, what changes are acceptable to the other side or to a third party as you say, if he doesn't test them in a negotiating process?

How will Kofi Annan know before hand (before negotiations start), which changes are or will be acceptable by the other side?

[michalis5354]

This is ongoing. I believe two people have been charged with offences relating to this in the US. I also think one of them was Greek but that may just be me dreaming so do not quote me on it. As far as I understand Kofi Annans connection was through his son though to date I do not believe any charges have been bought agaist him (kofi annans son) just much 'speculation' in the press of dodgy dealings.

Strange that someone who was supposed to deal with serious international issues being involved in such a scandal! I think his image has been affected at that time!

[Bananiot]

Are you saying that this is the reason why he does not send them? Anyway, he will negotiate the changes of course. He is not obliged beforehand to spell out what he wants. For example, he will say, we need to rethink the security issue, the settlers issue etc. I honestly can not see why he is insisting to take all the blame and stick, even from Greek politicians, unless he has another agenda on his mind. He says many things but one has learned to be very cautious as to what to believe. He is very much discretited, for example, he said in all earnesty that not a single TC soul was lost between 1963 and 1974! Can anyone believe him when he says that he supports bizonal, bicommunal federation?

I am off to bed now, so I will come back tomorrow If I have to. Goodnight.

[insan]

This is ongoing. I believe two people have been charged with offences relating to this in the US. I also think one of them was Greek but that may just be me dreaming so do not quote me on it. As far as I understand Kofi Annans connection was through his son though to date I do not believe any charges have been bought agaist him (kofi annans son) just much 'speculation' in the press of dodgy dealings.

Strange that someone who was supposed to deal with serious international issues being involved in such a scandal! I think his image has been affected at that time!

Oddly enough, it was a Cypriot, Sevan Benon who put Koffis head into trouble.

[michalis5354]

Oddly enough, it was a Cypriot, Sevan Benon who put Koffis head into trouble.

First time to hear this. But still he is a SG of UN - highly ranked at UN- He can not be easily mislead!

[Bananiot]

Toumazos Tsielepis, the "heavy artillery" of AKEL on the Cyprob, breaks his silence: "we need to tell the SG of the UN our areas of concern" he says in an interview in yesterdays "Politis" newspaper.

http://www.politis-news.com/cgibin/hweb ... les&-p&-w=

You see, magicthrill, that really you should be angry at those that mislead you into believing that Papadopoulos has already given the changes he wants to the A Plan. In fact it was Papadopoulos himself who started the fairy tails by saying that "those that need to know, know". Of course he is the master of deception but its up to the rest to be allowed to be fooled.

[Kifeas]

Are you saying that this is the reason why he does not send them? Anyway, he will negotiate the changes of course. He is not obliged beforehand to spell out what he wants. For example, he will say, we need to rethink the security issue, the settlers issue etc. I honestly can not see why he is insisting to take all the blame and stick, even from Greek politicians, unless he has another agenda on his mind. He says many things but one has learned to be very cautious as to what to believe. He is very much discretited, for example, he said in all earnesty that not a single TC soul was lost between 1963 and 1974! Can anyone believe him when he says that he supports bizonal, bicommunal federation?

I am off to bed now, so I will come back tomorrow If I have to. Goodnight.

Bananiot,
If you want to enter into a dialectical discussion with me, please do not move the goal post every time you find it difficult to answer a specific question. Kofi Annan and his aides (see Anglo-Americans) have asked for a list with specific and quantified changes that Papadopoullos wants to see in the A-Plan 5. You are now telling me that he can present them in a general context of areas of concern. This is not what Annan is asking. In fact, this is what Papadopoullos and Christofias have expressed willingness to do. I.e., to outline the general areas of concern, something that has already been done in the national council by all political parties involved and with the agreement and consent of the president. However the "devil" is always in the details and these is what Annan and the Anglo-Americans are asking (to know the "devil" before hand.)

I will refrain from touching your personal opinionated view and characterisations about Papadopoullos. Before going back to my initial question I will say only this. I do not agree with you that Papadopoullos is disrespected or discredited worldwide as you want to believe.

Back to my initial question for which I hope I will get an answer this time so that we can proceed further in our dialogue.

-What happens if, after Annan receives the requested list with the specific changes that Papadopoullos wants to see in the A-plan in order to agree to it, Kofi Annan decides that there is no ground for negotiations to convene?
-Furthermore, what happens if Kofi Annan takes Papadopoullos detailed list and goes to the Turkish side, shows them the list and asks them whether they can accept Papadopoullos changes and they say no, none is acceptable or maybe 2 or 3 of them are but they ask for changes (in exchange) that are further worsening the plan for our side?

What will be the next step should one of the two scenarios occur?

[Bananiot]

-What happens if, after Annan receives the requested list with the specific changes that Papadopoullos wants to see in the A-plan in order to agree to it, Kofi Annan decides that there is no ground for negotiations to convene?

-Furthermore, what happens if Kofi Annan takes Papadopoullos detailed list and goes to the Turkish side, shows them the list and asks them whether they can accept Papadopoullos changes and they say no, none is acceptable or maybe 2 or 3 of them are but they ask for changes (in exchange) that are further worsening the plan for our side?

What will be the next step should one of the two scenarios occur?

Here we go again

- There will be no negotiations.
- What will happen if the Sun tomorrow rises from the west?

If those are the dilemmas of the President then:

a) He should not give the specific changes to the Plan
b) He should wait until a new, impartial SG is appointed, or even better a pro Greek SG is installed so that there will be no fear that he will reveal our aces to the enemy.

I apologise for the tone of my answers but I find your questions oozing with Middle East canniness. This is not how international politics are run. My reference to the so called areas of concern had to do with magicthrill's outburst that "enough is enough" that is, Papadopoulos has already given the changes he wants to the SG. So it had nothing to do with your goal posts which of course remain cemented in deep concrete and no one can move them.

Let me repeat. If we seriously want the peace process to proceed, we need to pick up the ball from our court because it has taken roots in our court. If we seriously want the Plan to be the basis of a future solution, we need to pinpoint the changes we aspire. This will not damage us. It could lead to the opening of another window of hope. We need to stop encouraging the refugees and stop filling their brains with false hopes that the courts can solve their problem. We need to stop those that are trying their damnest to caltivate suspicion between the two communities.

If we do not care for a solution, then:

a) We should not give the specific changes to the Plan and ignore Annan
b) We should wait until a new, impartial SG is appointed, or even better a pro Greek SG is installed so that there will be no fear that he will reveal our aces to the enemy.

[magikthrill]

How does telling the ECHR to not allow any more human rights abuse cases against TURKEY satisfy the GCs or even the TCs????

I am still waiting for an answer to this. Prefereably from you bananoit who seems to have the A plan framed on his wall instead of having it for what it was meant to be used as: toilet paper.