Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nickp]

Firstly I have no easy answers and am not suggesting any - just posing questions.

My father did not have land in the south pre 74 (he and his family came from zeytinlik / temblos which is in the north. He did have some land there but this passed into other family members hands in the mysterious way this stuff works in Cyprus and neither my brother or me have an title to this land). He bought the land and house from a TC (australian) who built the house and in turn had bought the land from a TC - who I believe did have land in the south that was the basis for the exchange in which he recived the land in the north. It is just this kind of 'chain' that makes the whole issue so complex today.

I can understand how this may seem compliated. However, in a property exchange court, asssess the needs and wants of both sides and come to a fair conclusion and enforce it, even if one or the other doesn't even approve the outcome. In your case, if the land you have had these multiple exchanges is owned by a GC with a title deed, then you should continue to live there as long as yourself or the TC admin are willing to compensate the Greek owner. More than likely, if the land was owned by a GC, he'll most likely have no intention of moving back to the north as friends and family and livelyhood is in the south. However, even if he wanted his land back regardless, i dont think it should happen, he should take his fair compensation and get on with life like it or lump it. The whole point of this is that the two communities can live in their communities until we slowly start to mix again ans solve the current property problem.

There is also cases like that of my aunt. She did not have land in the south before 74 (she lived in the south originaly but rented property). However she was awarded points as 'compensation' for the loss of her husband and has lived the same property since 74 that was the form of this compenasation. She too has invested much money and emotion into this house. What of cases like hers. Should the pre 74 GC owners have the right to take back the property. They are, as I understand it, London based GC who have never lived in this house themselves.

Again, in a case like this i can't imagine these GC's to want this house back. It's a similar situation to my grandparents house in Kumyali. We have no desire of kicking the family out as we have settled somewhere else and my grandparents have passed on.

Hence a fair compensation to my family can be justified. Or there are other options such as renting the property out to your aunt or building alternative accomodation for either party. Again, it seems complex, but in essense it's not, it's just a case of assessing the situation and coming to a fair conclusion and enforce it.

I see most cases as being straight forward interms of a fair outcome. However, my biggest concerns are commercial properties, e.g Kyrenia harbour. But again, fair compromises and assessing the situation are the way to go. The problem is we can't uproot the whole of the TC population so people can get their property back as too much time has passed and we've all settled somewhere else. At the same time, the TC's can't expect the GC's just to forget about it. If there going to keep a restraunt on Kyrenia harbour or a hotel on the edge of Varosi they should be prepared to pay the compensation to the GC in the form of a mortgage or some other financial form with or without help from the ROC/TC admin and Turkey.

I understand your problem with this whole concept. However I fear that the reality is that politicaly Talat simply could not stop the boom in construction and house sales here unless some alternative chance of economic activtey and growth was found to replace it. This might not be fair or right but I believe is a reality. The fact is that money talks and talks loudly.

Even as much i would like to open up direct trade with the North to lift the isloation off the TC's i fear this would be the biggest and final rape of Northern Cyprus. If you think construction would stop, i think otherwise, with all the toruists and people it would attract property would sell like hot cakes and would encourage exploitation on a massive scale. Furthermore, any incentive for reunification would erode rapidly.

[Bananiot]

So the document you have indicated with the link answers the call of the SG for Papadopoulos to produce the changes he wishes to the Annan Plan. In this case why does the President tells off, everytime, those that call him to give the changes, claiming that such a move will give arbitration rights to the SG? Can you not see that there is serious contradiction here? The supporters of Papadopoulos, almost every day, write in newspapers articles that "explain" how wise the President is by not revealing his "negotiating hands" to our adversaries.

Magikthrill, you can keep insisting that the SG knows what changes we want but if this is the case then the whole world must have gone bonkers. One more thing; its emetic to read that one of the reasons we rejected the Plan was for security reasons. We even sent the Foreign Minister to Moscow to ensure that Russia did not support the call for the Security Council to step in to guarantee the enforcement of the Plan.

[Kifeas]

So the document you have indicated with the link answers the call of the SG for Papadopoulos to produce the changes he wishes to the Annan Plan. In this case why does the President tells off, everytime, those that call him to give the changes, claiming that such a move will give arbitration rights to the SG? Can you not see that there is serious contradiction here? The supporters of Papadopoulos, almost every day, write in newspapers articles that "explain" how wise the President is by not revealing his "negotiating hands" to our adversaries.

Magikthrill, you can keep insisting that the SG knows what changes we want but if this is the case then the whole world must have gone bonkers. One more thing; its emetic to read that one of the reasons we rejected the Plan was for security reasons. We even sent the Foreign Minister to Moscow to ensure that Russia did not support the call for the Security Council to step in to guarantee the enforcement of the Plan.

Bananiot,
Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Papadopoullos sends tomorrow morning a list 20 or 30 specific items in the A-plan5 that he doesn't accept and that he wants them to be changed in a certain specific way. I believe this is what Coffee Annan is asking him anyway.

What will happen afterwards in your opinion?
I mean after Coffee Annan receives Papadopoullos list of changes.

[Bananiot]

Anan will evaluate them and decide if there is ground to convene a new round of talks to solve the damn thing. If he does not send the changes he is asking for, the status quo will remain as it is and partition will be cemented for good and we might as well forget the whole issue. At the moment we are sending all the wrong signals to those that can do something about solving the Cyprob and especially the UN where the Cyprob will be solved, according to the admission of Papadopoulos. He is right here, only the UN can solve it and like many people I was also astonished to hear Papadopoulos say that there is no such thing as a european solution.

Kifeas, what do you think are the reasons he keeps the changes to himself? I believe he does not want the A Plan to change for the better because he is dead against bizonal, bicommunal federation. In essence he does not want to share power with the TC community. He does not accept political equality for the two communities, like many GC's I presume. Only, since there is no other option, his antics will lead us to permanent partition and the whole world will blame us for this and of course the TC community will not be punished for it.

[magikthrill]

Anan will evaluate them and decide if there is ground to convene a new round of talks to solve the damn thing

According to the letter (posted on the RoCs website) T-Pap had sent recommendations to ANnan prior to the "deadline" and had discussed the issue of settlers with De Soto, who refused to listen to T-Pap.

However, Turkeys request for the new Cypriot leaders to tell the ECHR not to accept any more property rights cases was put in toute suite.

And I ask

How does telling the ECHR to not allow any more human rights abuse cases against TURKEY satisfy the GCs or even the TCs????

[michalis5354]

Does anyone know what happened to the UN scandal that SG was involved.? I heard this long time ago but I do not know what happened at the end. Has any investigation being carried out?

[Kifeas]

If he does not send the changes he is asking for, the status quo will remain as it is and partition will be cemented for good and we might as well forget the whole issue. At the moment we are sending all the wrong signals to those that can do something about solving the Cyprob and especially the UN where the Cyprob will be solved, according to the admission of Papadopoulos. He is right here, only the UN can solve it and like many people I was also astonished to hear Papadopoulos say that there is no such thing as a european solution.

Kifeas, what do you think are the reasons he keeps the changes to himself? I believe he does not want the A Plan to change for the better because he is dead against bizonal, bicommunal federation. In essence he does not want to share power with the TC community. He does not accept political equality for the two communities, like many GC's I presume. Only, since there is no other option, his antics will lead us to permanent partition and the whole world will blame us for this and of course the TC community will not be punished for it.

Ok Bananiot,
Not too many issues simultaneously. One by one, please.

I stay on your first sentence and after I receive your answer we go further. You said that after Papadopoullos sends the changes “Anan will evaluate them and decide if there is ground to convene a new round of talks to solve the damn thing.”

What if Annan decides that Papadopoullo’s required changes do not provide ground for new talks to convene?

What will happen next?

[erolz]

Does anyone know what happened to the UN scandal that SG was involved.? I heard this long time ago but I do not know what happened at the end. Has any investigation being carried out?

This is ongoing. I believe two people have been charged with offences relating to this in the US. I also think one of them was Greek but that may just be me dreaming so do not quote me on it. As far as I understand Kofi Annans connection was through his son though to date I do not believe any charges have been bought agaist him (kofi annans son) just much 'speculation' in the press of dodgy dealings.

[MicAtCyp]

In this case why does the President tells off, everytime, those that call him to give the changes, claiming that such a move will give arbitration rights to the SG?

The SG to which you refer proved to be a puppet of the Americans and their allies.He lost his credibility and neutrality in our eyes.By insisting that we give him the changes we want on the Anan Plan is like telling us to negotiate the Anan Plan from is current status. Where do you think such negotiations will lead? The other side will consider whatever is in their favor in there as already gained and will not give it up unless it gains something else of equal importance. So it is more than obvious that such negotiations have no chance to lead anywhere other than a twin brother of the Anan Plan which of course will once again be rejected by us..
The pressure they apply on Papadopoulos in this respect is unethical, unfair, and in my opinion aimed at never starting the negotiations.

Notice that they never in the past set any preconditions for the resumption of the talks. The mere good will to negotiate and a quick survey of the positions of the 2 sides were enough.Papadopoulos never said the Anan Plan cannot be taken into consideration in discussions. In fact many parts of it where no side has objections can be included in the new solution. But this is different from negotiating THE Anan Plan again.
Papadopoulos said he is committed to a BBF solution. I personally disagree with this solution but anyhow Papadopoulos said he accepts it. Talat also said he accepts it. Talat did not insist on negotiations on THE Anan Plan. Gul said we can discuss EVERYTHING, "anything the other side wishes" were his exact words. Both Talat and Papadopoulos said they accept a BBF solution. So the question is:

Why the SG does not call for a resumption of the calls based on these commonly agreed grounds????

The only condition in my opinion is that whatever is discussed in there be monitored and made available publicly every day so that the side which is intrangident is exposed.So that we all know who in the end is really responsible for not reaching a solution.

[Bananiot]

Good question Kifeas. It is therefore up to Papadopoulos to ask for those changes that can be accepted by both communities at best and changes that are sound to a third party. If he starts making wild demands then of course the negotiations will never start and he will be finger pointed by those concerned as the party responsible (again). Remember also that the changes cannot alter the philosophy of the Plan.

Hence, I can understand his reluctance. If he does not go far enough in his demands, to satisfy the bigots, then he will lose his power base. He is in trouble! Unless of course he sides with the bigots and does not care twopence if the talks start at all.