Cyprus-Forum.com

[achilles]

Claims of your ancetors were inferior to my ancestors is your idea of promoting discussion then?

It sure is more thought provoking than trying to guess what i know and what i dont know. In any case its my humble comparative view of the two cultures and their contribution to humanity. Shall i keep it just for myself?

I know what you do not know based on what you claim to know - ie that your ancestors were superior to my ancestors (and you do not even know who my ancestors are but that does not stop you). You want a fruitful argument against your thesis that your ancestors were superior to my ancestors? How about one based on the argument that my dad is bigger and stronger than your dad and my mom is better looking that your mom?

I definitely do not know everything, (do you?), but i know enough to draw safe conclusions about the inferiority of superiority of each culture.

The point being that Turks/ ottomans and their (cultural) decendants are inferior and Greeks and their (cultural) decendands are superior.

No, this is just your unfortunate attempt to put a bit of 'racist' spice to what i said. I was talking about the past and what each band of peoples managed to acheive. My posts are all there...

The point is that nothing I show you will change your mind because you do not seek or want the truth. You simply wish to reinforce your own notions of superiority and inferiority of the Greek and Turkish peoples. In the face of this no evidence matters and I see no point in wasting my time.

The management of your time is nothin i can get involved with, yet i CAN say the following. The point is that you dont HAVE something tangible to show me, regarding the contribution and influence of your ancestors to themselves and the rest of the world. Where are all the great thinkers, scientists, artists of global magnitude? No anwer, cause there are not too many...if any.

Again you can not show anything to someone who refuse to see, you can not tell anything to someone who refuses to listen. I could tell you of the invention of the concept of 'zero' in mathematics, or of the first man flight (100 years or so before the montgolfier brothers in france) or countless other contributions to science, art, morality, philosphy, cusine, biblography but there really is no point in doing so. You will either dismiss or ignore or refuse to believe anything that does not fit your sacred ntion that Greeks (ancient and modern) are superior and Turks (ancient and modern) are inferior - that much is abundantly clear from your posting to date in this thread and others.

Allright, fair enough.

Not an easy taks but one you find no trouble in being a match for in your certain assertions that my ancestors culture was inferior conmpared to all western and far eastern cvilisations.

And i am still entitled to my assertion.

In 1000's years from now you will still be drinking Turkish coffee and still calling it oriental coffee to help support your need to believe in the inferiority of Turkish culture no doubt

.

I have no problem calling the specific coffee 'Turkish', in fact i do, although people say that its of Arabic origin

Tell me something that that you know of the hittite, or aztec, or sumarian, or assyrian or american indian or aboriginal autralian cultures and remeber them for even today - forget a 1000 years from now. If you struggle to do this does this proove the superiority of the Greek culture of the inferiority of Turkish culture? Only in your mind.

THere are things such as the Arabs profanity on mathematics, the Egyptians' expertise in anatomy, the Romans' ingenuity in architecure, the Native Americans' philosophy and ability to live within and communicate with nature, the Mesopotamians invention of agriculture and the list can go on. Nothing pops up regarding the Ottomans, at least as a contribution of an equally large scale.

[detailer]

Your sources!?!

You gave 10's of sources which are all crap. You wasted your time.

Some of them is obviously prepeared by greeks, or english which is funny.

Do you think that the english or new york times are not biased on this aspect?

You gave a link which gives some "german" quotes which is obviously prepeared by greeks

Well done.

[achilles]

Your sources!?!

You gave 10's of sources which are all crap. You wasted your time.

Some of them is obviously prepeared by greeks, or english which is funny.

Do you think that the english or new york times are not biased on this aspect?

You gave a link which gives some "german" quotes which is obviously prepeared by greeks

Well done.

Whatever buddy...if that makes your day i wont say no The sources are there for everyone to see.

[erolz]

I definitely do not know everything, (do you?), but i know enough to draw safe conclusions about the inferiority of superiority of each culture.

I do not know everything but I do know that making the kind of distinctions you make based on limited knowledge and biased perspectives about the relative merits and failings of different races and cultures past or present is a very dangerous mode of thought that has been used (and no doubt will continue to beused) on countless occasions to (try to) justify and even enoble sonme of the worst acts in human history. As such I personaly avoid and challenge such modes of thoughts automatically. That you consider your conclusion 'safe' is only more reason for me to be concerned as far as I am concerned.

The point being that Turks/ ottomans and their (cultural) decendants are inferior and Greeks and their (cultural) decendands are superior.

No, this is just your unfortunate attempt to put a bit of 'racist' spice to what i said. I was talking about the past and what each band of peoples managed to acheive. My posts are all there...

So what exactly is the point of your 'enquiry' then? Even if a panel of expert historians not just from a greek/roman western background and tradition were to do a deatiled study in to the comparative merits of ancient civilsations and decide to rank the ancient Greeks as number one and or the Ottomans as last, what use would such 'knowledge' be to anyone? What value to humanity would this provide (vs say the invention of zero in number systems?)? I can see no use in such an investigation (like there is little use in arguments that my mom is better looking than your mom) except as a tool to promote racial superiorty today? Maybe there is some other 'use' or 'value' to such an enquiry but if there is I do not see and would welcome you explaing to me what it is.

The management of your time is nothin i can get involved with, yet i CAN say the following. The point is that you dont HAVE something tangible to show me, regarding the contribution and influence of your ancestors to themselves and the rest of the world. Where are all the great thinkers, scientists, artists of global magnitude? No anwer, cause there are not too many...if any.

The fact that you are not 'aware' of such contributions by Ottomans / Turks can be explained by there being none or it can be explained by you not knowing of those that exist. Didi you know that Ottomans make claim to have achieved manned flight first or did you believe that is was the french / western / dervived from Greek culture mongolfier brothers that achieved this milestone of technical progress? Did you know that a Turk claims to have developed the use of zero in number systems (or do you have any idea how fundamental such a development is to all modern day mathematics and derived sciences?) or did you just assume that it was a product of greek/roman culture? Again the question becomes how much do you know (or want to know). Off the two possibilites (there were no such contributions from Turkish culutre or you are unaware of the contrinutions of Turkish culutre) you remain convinced of the 'safeness' of the assertion that the former is the case. Yet have you made any serious effort to try and make yourself aware of Turkish developments? Have you not considered it inevitable that growing up and being educted in a greek/roman western tradition that what you know is inevitable and unavoidably biased and made the necessary efforts to overcome this? It seems pretty clear to me that you have not and thus I come to the conclusion that your desire is not for subjective truth but simply to reinforce your preconvied notions about the superiority of your culture and the inferiorty of mine (and just for the record I am half english and half cypriot - and can not help but wonder in the face of your musing how you think the realtive contribtuions and cultures of modern england fares against that of modern Greece - or what the value or use of such an attempt at this comparission would be)

And i am still entitled to my assertion.

You certainly are, just as I am entitled to question it's validity and why you make it in the first place.

THere are things such as the Arabs profanity on mathematics, the Egyptians' expertise in anatomy, the Romans' ingenuity in architecure, the Native Americans' philosophy and ability to live within and communicate with nature, the Mesopotamians invention of agriculture and the list can go on. Nothing pops up regarding the Ottomans, at least as a contribution of an equally large scale.

And with respect it seems to me nothing pops up to you about the ottomans because of what you have been tought and what you want to believe more than what is actualy the case. That is my 'assertion' which I am sure you agree I am entitled to?

[suetoniuspaulinus]

Was Achilles Greek then?

[Murtaza]

http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/ ... ajfrm.html

instead of destroying a city, Taj Mahal made by Turks for love.

http://goasia.about.com/od/turkey/a/bluemosque.htm

Read it. It looks like fight of cultures go even that times.

http://www.kakarigi.net/manu/mostar.htm

bridge destroy by serbs.

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/a ... lgeno=1765

Grand Bazaar.

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/a ... lgeno=3004

TOPKAPI PALACE

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/a ... lgeno=1772

Konya Mevlevi Convent

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/a ... lgeno=1783

Hüdavend Hatun Valt

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/a ... lgeno=1749

Selimiye Mosque

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/a ... lgeno=1763

Sultan Inn (Alaeddin Inn)

http://www.fotosearch.com/photos-images ... alace.html

Dolmabaçhe Palace

http://www.turkishculture.org/philosophers/Farabi.html

http://www.mevlana.ws/

http://www.allspirit.co.uk/emre.html

http://web.archive.org/web/199812061426 ... tents.html

Learn Turkish Humanity

http://www.museumonline.at/1998/schools ... turm_e.htm

Look who fly.

http://www.biographycorner.com/biograph ... 64672.html

Mathematician and an Astronomer

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/PiriRies.HTM

Want to look oldest map of America?

Dont tell me, Turkish culture is nothing.
Just learn what Turks do than say it.

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[suetoniuspaulinus]

Thank you Murtaza

[MicAtCyp]

The hardest bit was
dealing with the sheer boredom of sitting around all day
doing nothing.

Hahaha.I know what you mean Erol. All armies are the same....

not correct to assert that the ottomans did nothing to
produce or advance civilisation.

Well although you wrote about 300 words to tell me you do not accept a clear definition for what civilisation is, I see you then come overthrowing your own thesis, by claiming the standard meaning of "civilisation" and claiming that the Ottomans actually produced or advanced civilisation. However then say

I think this is a
racist / biased based view based not on historical fact
and evidence. I am not however any sort of expert, but
the idea that one culture is superior to any pother is
to me an anethma by default.

Without even caring to mention us the historical evidence to which you refer.
No Erol, it is not a racist view.The Ottomans did not produce civilisation and this is a FACT.

Again then I ask is a culture that manages to live in
harmony and sustainability with its environment more or
less civilised than one that rapes and destroys it's
environment? Who get's to deifne if this is more
civilised or not?

Primitive societies who live in harmony with the environment, do not do it because they are "civilised" in fact they may not have any civilisation at all, they could even be cannibals.
I think you are trying to base your argumentation on philosophical issues, in whixch case we may even start doubting if we are living in a real world or in a world of pshycho-image-emotion, something like a kind of a dream that is ....In which case even the Ottomans could be just an unpleasant dream for us.....

About our friend Insan I think I know what he is busy doing right now, and if he is still reading us I wish him every success.

[erolz]

Note1: Erolz I think number zero was not a Turkish contribution, but rather Arab. But for people like Achilles it does not matter anyway. For them it is Orienatlism vs. Westernism.

To be honest my education and background is totaly greek/roman civilisation based with all the bias that involves. My personal knowledge of Turkish history and culture is woefully slim and inadequate. However I recognise this fact and I certainly would not consider my lack of knowledge of cultures other than the one(s) I was born into and grew up and was educated (with all the inevitable bias of fact and perspective this must mean) as proof of the superiroty of my culture over any other. The claim re the number zero came from a brief google search and it may or may not be accurate. At a guess I would be surprised in there were not many cultures that developed such a concept independently. Anyway the quick google search produced a site that claims the following

"Ahmed Horezmi, who has an Arab-sounding name, was a Turkish citizen who moved to the newly-conquered Baghdad in 1517... and discovered the "digit" of zero... which, along with "ones," forms the basis of the computer you are reading this on."