Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murtaza]

This was a 300 hundred year old rule in Cyprus and you come up with such incidents that each and every empire in the world had experienced? I am not going to deny these incidents although the numbers must be overexaggerated by you, but this should not make us and the Turks in Turkey to be ashamed of their ancestors.

My friend,
I didn’t write all these things, none of which is over-exaggerated btw, in order to make you feel ashamed, as you accuse me. Murtaza and Sunetiouspaulinus provoked me by claiming that they were all lies and asked for impartial evidence. This game of victimization is only played by TCs in this forum. They always accuse us (GCs) for committing atrocities in the sixties, for attempting genocide against the TCs, etc, etc.

But I suppose it is okay for you to continuously write volumes of pages in this forum against the GCs and how cruel and inhumane they were in the sixties, although no more than 750 TCs were killed during 11 years, in order to victimise us for something that happened 40 years ago and also use it as an excuse to impose your way of solution on us; but is not okay for us to even write one or two postings, even though we were induced to do so, due to your complete denial.

Kifeas I think you see just what you want to see.

I asked you a question. Did you accept "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". Because You can see "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" in this Country Study page.If you accept what they said in this pages, you should accept "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". If this pages proof of ottoman mass killing, It also prove "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus".

"When the whole "civilised" Europe was living in mud the Greeks had Byzantium. And there came the Ottomans taking them 1000 years back, and keeping them there until the 19th century" You write. But It is Byzantium who called and supported crusader. when they destroy cyprus
and İstanbul, it is not our guilty but your. You feed the scorpion, and you get its poison too.

"agik the Ottoman blacksmiths used to hot dip their swords and war axes in a barrel of blood.(OK it's barbaric I know, please don't vomit)They thought this would give them "devine killing strength". The astonishing thing is it did!!! It made their "hatzars" (?) extremely hard, unbreakable, and always sharp enough to take off someones head with a single strike!
This however was the first breakthrough in modern treatment of steel, i.e the first basic way to harden the steel is to add traces of carbon in it when it melts.(the blood the Ottomans used contained carbon)"

You write. I didnt ever here this is made in Anatolia or other ottoman ruled places.So I think they should learn this from Greeks. Dont know but just know this is not the Turkish habit.


"Genocide of Pontian Hellenes" what is this? I said I dont know much about Cyprus not about Anatolia. So if you say something I dont know just say it about Cyprus not Anatolia.

Ah didnt the crusaders destroyed all people in jerusalem with the help of greeks?

By the way,At this modern times, No country gives What ottoman gived his minority "Millet System"

And you passed one question too, Did your people prefer Venetians? I asked this question 2 time before, No answer still.

is "Venetians" a true word garbitsch? Thanks body:)

The last question what would happen Turkish Cypriot if Turkey dont attack the island?

You lived 300 year under the harsh rules of Turks.
Will Turks bear 300 year in cyprus?

"Although their homeland had been dominated by foreigners for many centuries, it was only after the imposition of Ottoman rule that Orthodox Christians began to develop a really strong sense of cohesiveness. This change was prompted by the Ottoman practice of ruling the empire through millets, or religious communities. Rather than suppressing the empire's many religious communities, the Turks allowed them a degree of automony as long as they complied with the demands of the sultan"

It looks like if Ottoman didnt come to Cyprus, You couldnt even develop a really strong sense of cohesiveness. So it looks like they made a mistake, because this cohesiveness hurt their grandchildren.

Too long sorry:)

Have a nice night

[MicAtCyp]

I keep trying to tell Mr Kieas that the Ottomans gave him back his church but I forgot to tell him that his own bishops were the tax collectors, (probably creaming off the top as the present administrators of the Health Department )

But he wouldn't believe me. Well he didn't post any reply to my postng.

I was upset

TC's often tell the truth you know

Sir,

I personally siad this fact many times in the past in this forum.I hope you beleive me. May I stress once again that it is the Ottomans who turned the GC and the Greek church into so rich and powerful?

It's very hard for some forum members to admit the truth no matter how much it hurts their arguments. This is especially true for GC forum members.

See what I mean Sir?
By bows and respects once again.

[MicAtCyp]

If I were a shrink, I would come up with a conclusion that Greek Cypriots and Greeks believe (and actually they are) they are the founders of democracy, they established very big civilisation etc, but they have this complex of not being able to control what they have created and being subordinated by the other civilisations

What makes you think you are not a shrink already?
Hi shrink!

[MicAtCyp]

I think they tell these nice stories to children only. I dont think anybody here is a child.

If you were so civilised!, so democratic!!!!( and you need to be very clever to achieve these things , how come these barbarians ottomans invaded and RULED greek people for 300 years?

Dear non child,

can you tell us where you disagree and why? Or your mom only taught you how to take your tongue out? Do you deny that the Greeks had the most advanced civilisation untill 1453? Do you deny that all Empires eventually collapse, without this having anything to do with their civilisation?

****************

Oh right!!! Byzantine empire was so civilised that the barbarian Ottomans gave an end to it! What a piece of story!!! Well I am not going to make comments on this since you said "this is how Greeks believe".

If you can convince me that the Ottomans had a higher standard of Civilisation than the Byzantium go ahead.

This makes we Turkish Cypriots pissed off, because we are the descendents of Ottomans and we all know what Ottomans achieved and what troubles they caused to their subjects

You shouldn’t be offended.For two reasons a)Because you are no more their decentands than you are decendents of the local population.Did the Ottomans bring their wives with them? b) for the same reason I am not offended for the attrocities against the TCs in the 60s. I just accept what my ancestors did and feel sorry.

What matters for me is to understand why todays people of the other side feel the way they do. And by the way this was my initial point in response of your own sarcastic argument that the Ottomans were barbaric, etc May I remind you that I told you to think of the reasons why the GCs feel like that?

As for the so-called Pontian genocide, when are you going to claim that there was a "Brazilian genocide" committed by the Ottoman Turks?

Look if you prefer to divert the discussion to jokes, do it by yourself.Tell me what are you celebrating today 19 May? 300,000 Pontians is a genocide for me what is it for you? And the pontians were not living in Brazil by the way, they were living at the areas where your father of Turks first arranged to secure the country from it's "enemies" to bring peace in the country piss in the world.

I wonder how many T.Cs in this forum believe in your sincerity?

I expect nothing! I fear no-one.... Sounds familiar to you? I am not expecting you to beleive in my sincerity-I don't even need or want that. Katalaves?
*******************************

Nothing of all the above happened? Only the few good things that you highlighted are the deeds of the Ottoman Turks?

That's what they teach them Kifeas.The nice and glorious things. The best they can say is that the Ottomans were not Angels. Ask them for an example of how they were not angels nobody knows!!!

[gabaston]

Kifeas

First off

We don’t like being called barbaric heathens, or Anatolian imported what-evers etc.
Genocide this and genocide that…………………….

Hey the news today is that there is a Geneva convention, which laid down specific ways of dealing with specific conflicts. All the modernized countries agreed to this, and agreed to face the consequences of violating its terms.

Now many, many, many years ago there was no such international agreement. It was law of the jungle. Big fish ate little fish and so on. We don’t go on and on and on about roman, greek, atrocities or even the ethnic cleansing of the Americas, because we simply accept that that is how things were done then. This lot bashed up that lot and that lot beat up the other lot. This is the hash-fact, evolution of humanity. We all played that game, and eventually we ended up with countries, where each country was defined, by borders that their populations could physically and/or economically defend.

Now do you think that the when your lot got out of that Trojan horse, and opened the gates of Troy, that a birthday party took place?
Seriously huh, what do you think happened? Please just close your eyes and imagine it.

Well like I say all countries played that game, you, them and us.

The reason we keep harping on about the sixties, is

1) because we are trying to tell you, the life we lived under that regime, and thank you for at last believing us. As I have said a million times before I don’t honestly think that most gc’s actually were allowed to be made aware of what was going on, because most good honest people would not knowingly have accepted a govt capable of doing what that govt done.
2) You lot keep going on about the illegal invasion as such and the consequential presence of the Turkish Army. If by now you can not accept that Samson was going to drive us tc’s into the sea, then lets can carry on as we are, and lets forget the whole deal. If you accept that Turkey invaded to save us from Samson and/or the Regime, which oversaw the killings of those 750 or so tcs then we can move on. Then you agree the TA came and saved us from a regime which oppressed us, and a flawed constitution incapable of administering a peaceful coexistence or guaranteeing our safety. You should be able to understand the logic that returning tcs back to the laws, which oversaw their oppression would be totally contrary to the reasoning behind the invasion. It would have been a nonsense. Having accepted that the constitution was unworkable, (even Makarios said so), then a different constitution would have, (or will have) to be implemented prior to the TA’s withdrawal from Cyprus. Until that different workable, agreed by both sides, constitution is found, and seen to work then the TA will remain, in order to protect tc’s from that original unworkable constitution, evidently unable to guarantee their safety..




Now gc’s claim illegal occupation, and land theft, and 200,000 refugees. Hey we deeply regret 200, 000 refugees. We also deeply regret the sufferings of all innocent Gc’s during after the invasion. We also deeply regret leaving our homes too, but we never asked to be oppressed, or for Athens to try and kill us either. This is how and why we are now on a divided island.

So now tc’s have to justify why they live on greek land, and why turkish army is on Cyprus, and you say ok we did commit nasty things during the sixties, but what about the nasty things the Ottomans did before, and we say what about the nasty things you did before the Ottomans came, and you say yes but Pythagoras invented the right angle triangle and we say how did the Peruvians build their pyramids, so on and blah blah.

The reason we keep on about the sixties, is because that period violated the internationally accepted way of governing a post Geneva Convention country, and that really is the reason why cyprus is in this mess, and not an excuse for us to do some land grabbing.

We (both tc and gc) are not ready to live as an integrated people as we once did, that should be obvious by the posts in this forum. Maybe future generations may give it another try, or maybe when we are all the citizens of just one country The Unites States of Europe we will have pleasure of living together again. For now though, lets agree on something where gc’s and tc’s can get on with their lives in peace, and set the framework upon which future Cypriots can live without fear or suspicion of each other.

Feel free to comment, but hopefully and without prejudice, you’ll wait a long time for my response regarding Ottomans, or homelessness, or human rights - prior to a proven workable new constitution. And especially none on Peruvian pyramids.

Best regards to all my cypriot brothers and sisters.

[erolz]

Do you deny that the Greeks had the most advanced civilisation untill 1453?

Surely that depends on how you measure 'advanced'? By some measures, like ability to live a sustainable existance in harmony with their enivronment many 'primative' cultures past and present could claim to be more 'advanced' than anything achieved by the ancient Greeks or the British empire or the USA today - in my opinion at least. Do not get me wrong I have the greatest respect and admiration for the achievements of ancient Greeks, in philosophy, mathematics, medicine and many other fields. However I do not 'rank' these based on ethnicity. There undoubdetly were many achievments of many cultures that I simply know nothing about relative to Greek Culture that is the conceptual base for modern European culture via the renaicence. Who knows how better or worse the world today might have been if a different culture had become this base?

Do you deny that all Empires eventually collapse, without this having anything to do with their civilisation?

Empires are based on power (economic and military) and exploitation. They are ultimately unsustainable because of this. Cizilisation is just a term used by the powerful to justify and mediate their expolitation of others imo. Cultures can be considered more or less techologicaly advanced and this usualy correaltes with their ability to exploit others more effectively but to me this has nothing to do with being civilised. The USA was and is technologicaly advanced but the building and use in anger of the worlds first (and second) nuclear weapon on civilans is not something I consider 'civilised'.

If you can convince me that the Ottomans had a higher standard of Civilisation than the Byzantium go ahead.

My personal view is that there is not a civilisation past or present so advanced that it has nothing that can be learnt from other cultures and civilisations no matter how 'primative'. To me the acceptance that these things are all relative and than no culture is more 'advanced' than any other excpet by arbitary criteria is the most 'civilised' outlook and one that states a given group is more civilised than another by its own arbitary criteria is a 'primative' outlook that hopeful one day the human race will grow out of.

for the same reason I am not offended for the attrocities against the TCs in the 60s. I just accept what my ancestors did and feel sorry.

Ignoring the mixing of race (genetics) with ethnicity (culture) I would say that the acts comitted by some GC against TC from 63 onwards were not something done by your ancestors but something done by GC still alive today (one of which is your president btw). I feel no responsibility for the actions of ottomans in Cyprus. I do feel a sense of collective responsibility for the actions of the TC community in Cyprus because I am (culturaly) a TC and part of that community. I am not culturaly an ottoman.

That's what they teach them Kifeas.The nice and glorious things. The best they can say is that the Ottomans were not Angels. Ask them for an example of how they were not angels nobody knows!!!

And what do 'you' teach GC? Is the 'best' most GC can say about the actions of their community (of which many of the participants of these acts are still living today) is that 'some were not angels'. Ask them for an example and they will say it was only a few extremists and they didn't really do that much that was bad and anyway ottomans did much worse to them (they mean their ancestors of course) for much longer. My point is do you not think this kind of 'denial' is something we all do, or do you really see it as something unique to Turks and TC (who trace their roots culturaly, not genticaly, to the ottoman empire)?

[Murtaza]

Still no answer for question? And as remember at 1453 it is not the greeks champion of civilization but Araps. at 4. Crusader You lost what you have named civilization. Crusaders destroyed Istanbul not us.
And again they destroyed the Cyprus.When ottoman attacked to cyprus there is not civilization but pain,slavery and oppression. Stop to accuse Ottomans and Turk for all thing go wrong in you life.

[achilles]

If you can convince me that the Ottomans had a higher standard of Civilisation than the Byzantium go ahead.

Interesting challenge. I wouldnt go for its cause it cannot be prooven....

Or the Turkish chunk of the discussion can pinpoint one great thinker or one great painter, or one huge poet (of the magnitude of Elytis), one great writer, one great architect or anything GREAT that their 'equally important' culture has provided the rest of us with.

Can anyone name ONE great think that humanity owes to the Ottoman/Turkish culture/'civilization'? Apart from '1000+1 methods to eradicate homo sapiens', that is...

Thank you very much in advance

[achilles]

Still no answer for question? And as remember at 1453 it is not the greeks champion of civilization but Araps. at 4. Crusader You lost what you have named civilization. Crusaders destroyed Istanbul not us.
And again they destroyed the Cyprus.When ottoman attacked to cyprus there is not civilization but pain,slavery and oppression. Stop to accuse Ottomans and Turk for all thing go wrong in you life.

No this is not true, we only accuse the Turks for 2, maybe 3 genocides, (oh well call it the Minor Asia Holocaust), for the fact that they have based their very own existence on blood and grabbing what was NOT theirs and for the fact that they had been hindering the Hellenic prosperity for 400 years. Too bad you ancestors didnt make anything out of their contact with the motherland of western civilization.

[erolz]

Interesting challenge. I wouldnt go for its cause it cannot be prooven....

Or the Turkish chunk of the discussion can pinpoint one great thinker or one great painter, or one huge poet (of the magnitude of Elytis), one great writer, one great architect or anything GREAT that their 'equally important' culture has provided the rest of us with.

Can anyone name ONE great think that humanity owes to the Ottoman/Turkish culture/'civilization'? Apart from '1000+1 methods to eradicate homo sapiens', that is...

Thank you very much in advance

That you can not name a single great painter, poet, writer or archictect or anything 'great' that relates to the ottoman empire is simply a reflection of your own limited knowledge and blinkered and narrow education and nothing more. That you can use your own ignorance as 'proof' of your thesis is also quite telling. I strongly suspect that you personally would struggle to find examples of the above from any civilisation other than your own beloved and venerated ancient Greek civilisation - which as I point out is not a testment to these other civilisations but to your own ignorance and limited knowledge.

Countless examples could be given but what would be the point. Your own intelligence should tell you that there were such people from all cultures even if you personaly have no knowledge of them and have never been toaught about them. It seems however that an irrational beleif in the supremacy of Greek culture above all others is a more comfoting crutch for you than intellignet logical enquiry. Anyway on the off chance that you are genuinely interested in sonme education and expansion of your mind and your horizions here is a link to get you started

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features ... 55,00.html